Lesson for Israel
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Agreed. The IDF probably did not expect hezbollah to know how to employ anti-armor tactics with such effectiveness. They probably knew about them having such weapons, but knowing how to use it effectively is a different story.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Pls lah, only fools (or those who don't do their homework) assume the worlds best MBTS like the Abrams or the Merkava are unhurtable. Given the right amount of explosives any tank will be vulnerable. What tanks do against what is more of an effect of people who think war is only waged by getting the best weapons and charging in on a technologically weaker foe. Which is hardly the case.
What is wrong here is not the tanks (which are doing as well as they can given what they are taking), it is really the tatics that need to be worked on bringing the best abilities of the Merk against their foes and working to cover up their weakness. But I don't think they have any much better tank in the world to go into battle with.
I think people focus too much on the losses at times, one never bothered to count how many lives were saved by the tanks. While one may here reports of an Abrams or two being demolished by massive IEDs in Iraq, the truth is (and if you have seen the pictures), the tanks have held out very well in most cases to being attacked by IEDs that would have killed soldiers had they been in lesser machines.
The Hezbollah have become very well trained fighting lot, no doubt trained by former Iranian or Syrian special forces or ex-military personnel. We know that the Iranians and Syrians are the suppliers of such weaponry, and naturally, they would train Hezbollah to use them.
I believe one of the forumites here had a very accurate description of Hezbollah. They are the "French Foreign Legion" equivalent of the Syrian and Iranian armed forces.
Hmm, since Hezbollah is jointly supported and trained by Iran and Syria, I wonder what will happen if relations between the two turn hostile? Would it lead to a possible break up of hezbollah?
Another thing. Has the Israelis fielded their Trophy system on the armored vehicles? -
Israeli Tactics & Strategy South of the Litani River.
Re-posted from other Internet Forum
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It appears the tactics & strategy employed thus far by the Israeli High
command are exposing their MBTs ( & soldiers) to maximum disadvantage
vis-a-vis Hezbollah fighters south of the Litani river.
It appears that:
1/ Securing just 5km security zone is not sufficient. It appears
that even this thin strip of ''occupied'' 5km zone is not properly
garrisoned with enough Israeli troops! In many instances these
areas are re-occupied / re- infiltrated by Hezbollah after the
Israeli troops leave the area. Hezbollah can re-enter the
vacated area again & again after the Israeli left. In turn,
Israeli troops have to re-conquer / re-capture the same piece
of ground again & again. And each time the Israeli re-enter
the fray, their MBTs & APCs & combat bulldozers have to
endure / suffer the same hail of anti-tank fire (ATGMs) etc..
It appears the Israeli are paying for the same piece of ground
over & over again!
2/ The tactic & habit of sending in ground troops to enter &
search every building & house is very wasteful of Israeli lives.
Besides, many Israeli soldiers were caught inside these
houses & buildings by Hezbilloh firing ATGMs into these
houses with the Israeli searching inside them!
There are many instances of tunnels & bunkers built inside
houses, with inter-connecting tunnels between all these
houses etc... Hezbollah fighters can re-appear from under
these tunnels networks & ambush the remaining Israeli
troopers by surprise.
3/ It appears the current tactics south of the Litani river is
dictated by a fear of Casualties on the part of the present Israeli
politicians ( who incidentally are not ex-generals like their
predecessors - ex-PM Sharon,Barak, etc...)
4/ To win the fight south of the Litani river, the Israeli MUST re-think
their tactics & strategy.
a) Their must be more ground troops committed to the battle.
An additional 40,000 ground troops MUST be sent into
southern Lebanon to occupy all ground up to the Litani river.
This will create a buffer zone of at least 50 Km up to the
Litani river.
b) The extra 40,000 troops will form the NEW front line facing
Hezbollah. The existing 10,000 Israeli troops currently
battling Hezbollah will continue to liquidate Hezbollah positions.
However, no new supply of ammo or reinforcement will
reach any existing Hezbollah positions BEHIND the NEW
front line created.
Without fresh ammo & fresh reinforcement, the positions
of all Hezbollah fighters behind the new front line are
unsustainable.
c) All houses & buildings below the Litani river & BEHIND the
new front-line will be destroyed/ flattened.
The occupants of the houses will be allowed to vacate the
buildings first. Special care & attention must be paid to
get the old, sick & aged folks out of these houses first.
All houses will then be bombed & destroyed / flattened.
There is NO need for Israeli troops to fight from room-to-room
& house-to house. This tactic is very wasteful of Israeli lives.
Once destroyed / flattened, the MBTs, APCs, combat Bulldozers
can be used to compact the rubble & houses. This will ensure
hidden bunkers & tunnels etc... will remain sealed forever.
d)The whole of the area South of the Litani River will be devoid
of any civilians. This whole area will be declared a free-fire zone.
Giant, intricate minefields will be constructed to deter any intruders.
It will be declared a no-go war-zone. No unauthorised movement
of any kind will be permitted, day or night.
e) The remaining city of Tyre will be fenced-in, together with the
remaining skeleton population. Tyre will eventually be deserted/empty
The existing 10,000 Israeli troops will continue to patrol & garrison
the area behind the New front line to ensure Hezbollah cannot re-occupy
these areas south of the Litani river.
The New frontline will be manned by 40,000 fresh Israeli troops.
These 40,000 troops will be dug-in to face Hezbollah for the next phase of the war.
This could last a long time.
In the meantime, the war (including Aircraft & Artillery) will continue as
per current tactics & strategy North of the Litani river. -
I suppose that the Tankees, killed by big-ass IEDs and RPGs,ATGMs, spitballs and paperclips shot from rubber bands are usually killed by the concussive force of the explosive rather then the sharpnel or any others. As in most pics of damages Merkavas or Abrams, the tank is still largely in the orignal form and shape thanks to their armour. But the concussion actually kills by the magnification of the metal
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BTW, Merkava-4 was destroyed by what type of weapon? Heard Hezbl got some awesome Russian designed ATMs & RPGs
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Actually it's a tad disappointing how the word has held Israel to double standards.
Israel has never openly declared that any nation or race should be destroyed unlike the Hizbolla, Hamas or Iran.
Take any nation, repeatly shower rockets on its citizens, send bombs (human or remote control) and kidnap its citizens, and thene expect them not to retaliate is ridiculous! And the fact that these terrorists groups are being supported by governements (where do you think all their advanced weoponry came from) makes it even more amazing that so many in the world are critizing Israel.
Now I'm not saying that it's right to cause so many civilian causalties, but com'on people, if people were bombing Singapore killing your sisters and parents, kidnapping your sons, maiming your daughters.. Then openly declaring: "I want to wipe you off the face of the earth!" How would you react??
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The argument can me made the other way. If the people of Israels allows its Army to employ "shock and awe" to punish civilians for the actions of some, don't blame Lebanon.Originally posted by audiovideo:don't cry for lebanon.
If the people of this country allows Hezbollah to make use of their land and resources to harrass the innocent people of Israel, don't blame Israel.
Do you allow your neighbour to keep disturbing your family members? throwing stone at them or setting fire at your front door and etc? Will you beat the hell out of them?
You will! with all your might.
Will you allow another nation to bomb your friends and family, etc? Will you fight to defend/avenge your peers?
You probably will. -
and that's why it's called war. People die in wars.Originally posted by lwflee:The argument can me made the other way. If the people of Israels allows its Army to employ "shock and awe" to punish civilians for the actions of some, don't blame Lebanon.
Will you allow another nation to bomb your friends and family, etc? Will you fight to defend/avenge your peers?
You probably will.
Bleeding heart liberals should find a way to end the war, and not cover their ears and go "nininininini"
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How you retaliate is important as well. If another country were to bomb Singapore, I would not condone the RSAF deliberately carpet bombing civilian installations.Originally posted by insouciant:Actually it's a tad disappointing how the word has held Israel to double standards.
Israel has never openly declared that any nation or race should be destroyed unlike the Hizbolla, Hamas or Iran.
Take any nation, repeatly shower rockets on its citizens, send bombs (human or remote control) and kidnap its citizens, and thene expect them not to retaliate is ridiculous! And the fact that these terrorists groups are being supported by governements (where do you think all their advanced weoponry came from) makes it even more amazing that so many in the world are critizing Israel.
Now I'm not saying that it's right to cause so many civilian causalties, but com'on people, if people were bombing Singapore killing your sisters and parents, kidnapping your sons, maiming your daughters.. Then openly declaring: "I want to wipe you off the face of the earth!" How would you react?? -
Alas, I have no idea how to stop the war. Well, I do have an idea actually. You need to cut off US,etc support for israel, both financial and military and let it fight its own wars.Originally posted by LazerLordz:and that's why it's called war. People die in wars.
Bleeding heart liberals should find a way to end the war, and not cover their ears and go "nininininini" -
and Iran+Syria should do the same too.Originally posted by lwflee:Alas, I have no idea how to stop the war. Well, I do have an idea actually. You need to cut off US,etc support for israel, both financial and military and let it fight its own wars.
Who knows, it might become police action instead, a ragtag criminal group versus Israeli border police and SWAT.
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Look back into history. Who started the wars... Israel was attacked the moment it was given its independence.Originally posted by lwflee:The argument can me made the other way. If the people of Israels allows its Army to employ "shock and awe" to punish civilians for the actions of some, don't blame Lebanon.
Will you allow another nation to bomb your friends and family, etc? Will you fight to defend/avenge your peers?
You probably will.
And the Israeli's aren't hiding behind its civilians. -
A lot of the tankers killed by IEDs were killed usually because they were unbuttoned and took the brunt of the blast and fragments from the explosion.Originally posted by SpecOps87:I suppose that the Tankees, killed by big-ass IEDs and RPGs,ATGMs, spitballs and paperclips shot from rubber bands are usually killed by the concussive force of the explosive rather then the sharpnel or any others. As in most pics of damages Merkavas or Abrams, the tank is still largely in the orignal form and shape thanks to their armour. But the concussion actually kills by the magnification of the metal
I'm not sure the concussion is amplified by the metal of the tank, if anything the solid structure of the tank acts as a buffer. A concussion wave would only take place within the tank if the hull actually goes through massive compression and expansion from the blast... which is not very likely in a 70 ton tank. However sometimes one might get HESH effects from the blast and you could have armour spalling within the interior from the shockwave acting against the hull. But AFAIK, most western MBTs have a spall liner to limit internal damage from fragments.
But what is known is that massive IEDs are a very inefficent way to kill an MBT. To demolish an Abrams as for it to be unrecoverable usually requires up to 200-300 kilos of improvised explosives that must explode when the tank drives straight over it. That 200-300 kilos could be used for a nuking lot of other stuff.
And that's only good for one tank. Most of the IEDs the M1s faced probably ranged in the lower grade and they stood up pretty well to it (usually suffering no more damage then that to the motive systems). It would work better to use AT mines or try to plink an RPG /ATGM shot into a weak area.
The main losses of US stuff to IEDs usually comes from hummers and the soft skins, not the tanks.
And as for Trophy, I don't think they have mounted them on the Merks yet... but I suspect the recent lessons might hasten that desire. -
To be precise, Israel fired the first salvo at sinai... that kick off the six day war.Originally posted by insouciant:Look back into history. Who started the wars... Israel was attacked the moment it was given its independence.
And the Israeli's aren't hiding behind its civilians.
Of course, the Egyptian had lay seige to the sea lane. But the Israelis did pre-emptive strike first.
And soon after, USS Liberty was attacked off the coast in international waters , who the crew cliamed that they had witness the massacre of Egytian POWs. -
Look before the 6 day war brother. Look at the very 1st few days of independence of Israel.Originally posted by MobyDog:To be precise, Israel fired the first salvo at sinai... that kick off the six day war. -
Oh.. you mean May 1948.. true... very true.Originally posted by insouciant:Look before the 6 day war brother. Look at the very 1st few days of independence of Israel.
The next day, 40000 Arabs attacked the Israel's 30000 troops.
But in July 1956, when Egypt nationalized the Suez Canal. England, France, and Israel joined them together to attack Egypt.
However, England and France simply wanted to recapture the Suez Canal, but Israel also intended to wipe out the Egyptian army, neutralize Palestinian bases in Gaza, and capture the Strait of Tiran. Israel then captured the Mitla Pass with an air attack, while England and France bombed Egyptian bases.
Yes, Arab started the wars, but Israel contn it. -
Actually, the animosity between the Arabs & the Israelis go far back to biblical times. The Palestinians were then known as Philistines...
The Hizbollah was baiting Israel to attack Lebanon & thereby not only to "justify" their attacks on Israel, but also to garner support & appear as heroes to the Arabs.
Some questions though, what's their Mossad doing? - seems like they're slipping & they don't appear to try to interdict incoming supplies from Syria & Iran -
Unless you are G.W. Bush - "You're either with us or against us" - I think what has been established is that this isn't a black and white issue.
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An article from The Guardian that support my view in my earlier post..
The search for exit
Now its on how to save Israel's face...
Another article
Israel struggles to capture strategic hills
Conal Urquhart in Metulla
Thursday August 10, 2006
The Guardian
Israeli forces today struggled to secure strategic hills close to the border town of Metulla, despite weeks of bombardment and days of fighting.
Dozens of tanks withdrew from hills close to the Lebanese Christian village of Marjayoun this morning and repeatedly came under anti-tank fire as they approached the border. One tank was set ablaze by a missile within a quarter of a mile of the village. The crew climbed on to another tank and were driven to safety.
As more tanks returned, pumping out smoke for cover, several more missiles were fired, narrowly missing their targets and setting light to scrub on the valley floor. A tank crew extinguished the fire in the damaged tank and towed the blackened vehicle to Metulla as Israeli artillery fired shells around it to create dust clouds for cover.
Israeli troops succeeded in taking control of one ridge east of Metulla. Scores of soldiers could be seen standing on the ridge next to a quarry, looking at the action in the valley below.
On a ridge west of Metulla, Hizbullah fighters fired anti-tank missiles, which resembled red darts, across the valley, exploding in a ball of fire on impact.
Throughout the night the valleys were illuminated and shaken by an endless bombardment. Tracer fire and rockets could be seen in the darkness.
There were reports of deaths and casualties in the fighting around Metulla but the Israeli army refused to comment until relatives had been informed.
The problems involved in taking control of the hills close to Metulla are the same all along the border. Although 10,000 troops and hundreds of tanks are deployed, Hizbullah fighters can easily evade them and attack when convenient.
"It is very difficult for a hundred tanks to find small teams of three or four men running over the hillside," said one soldier in Metulla.
According to reports, Israel is trying to remedy its failure to flush out Hizbullah fighters with air strikes and tanks by sending infantry into the villages on foot. Reuters quoted witnesses who saw Israeli troops moving on foot through Marjayoun about five miles inside Lebanon and neighbouring villages.
"I can see two tanks burning some 500 metres from Marjayoun," one resident told the news agency by telephone.
A third tank arrived later and removed several casualties, he said, adding that Hizbullah fighters were raining rocket and mortar fire on the Israeli force between Marjayoun and Khiam.
Both villages are dominated by Christian Maronites who were allied with Israel until it withdrew from Lebanon in 2000.
Hizbullah said in a statement it had destroyed 11 Israeli tanks, killing or wounding their crews in the fighting.
Israel has lost 82 soldiers in the fighting. Yesterday it lost 15, the highest number of fatalities in a single day.
The government decided to expand its operations in Lebanon, allowing the army to move to the Litani river, 18 miles inside Lebanon. However, there is growing dissent within Israel about the war's conduct.
Danny Yatom, a reservist general and senior member of the Labour party, said that moving deeper into Lebanon was pointless. "We are banging our head against the wall," he told Israeli TV. "And even if we reach the Litani, the Katyushas won't stop."
Some 160 rockets were fired at Israel yesterday and the pattern continued today. One rocket hit an Israeli Arab village, killing a two-year-old and an adult.
So far, the fighting has killed 120 Israelis, including 38 civilians. In Lebanon, officials say 711 people have been killed. The death toll among Hizbullah fighters remains unclear. -
The USS Liberty was an intelligence ship that recorded Israel's initial actions with regards to the war. Speculations are that it was sunk because it recorded data that would conflict with Israel's version of when the war began.Originally posted by MobyDog:To be precise, Israel fired the first salvo at sinai... that kick off the six day war.
Of course, the Egyptian had lay seige to the sea lane. But the Israelis did pre-emptive strike first.
And soon after, USS Liberty was attacked off the coast in international waters , who the crew cliamed that they had witness the massacre of Egytian POWs.
The Israelis are no angels when it comes to war. -
It is hard to blame Israel for its actions. Indeed many have pointed out that Israel did not purposely target civilians. Part of the blame should fall on the Hizbollah's tatic of using 'civilian shield'. Collateral damage is existant in every war.
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Here we go again.. Human shields again...Originally posted by pwnz0r:It is hard to blame Israel for its actions. Indeed many have pointed out that Israel did not purposely target civilians. Part of the blame should fall on the Hizbollah's tatic of using 'civilian shield'. Collateral damage is existant in every war. -
yeah... its a common error to call them human shields...Originally posted by MobyDog:Here we go again.. Human shields again...
i think they should be called "volunteers".
in the case of isreal... their soldiers step forward to defend their families...
but in lebanon, its kinda the opposite... the mother and childrens are defending their "holy fearless liberators/warriors"
isrealis should be careful... those "brave warriors" could be hiding right under their womens skirt, right between their legs
the bonus reward before going to heaven... i think.
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And we singaporeans are perfect 'human shields' for the British during the Singapore seige by the japs in WWII..Originally posted by tripwire:yeah... its a common error to call them human shields...
i think they should be called "volunteers".
in the case of isreal... their soldiers step forward to defend their families...
but in lebanon, its kinda the opposite... the mother and childrens are defending their "holy fearless liberators/warriors"
isrealis should be careful... those "brave warriors" could be hiding right under their womens skirt, right between their legs
the bonus reward before going to heaven... i think. -
that incorrect.Originally posted by MobyDog:And we singaporeans are perfect 'human shields' for the British during the Singapore seige by the japs in WWII..
we are an island nation.. where do you expect the brits to evacuate us to?
on the other hand... over half a million lebanese fled and left the fighting zone.. those who stayed.. either are volunteers.. or simply unfortunate souls who for one reason or another could not leave.
but i held the hizbollah responsible for all the civilian deaths in southern lebanon.
because they did not perform the most basic function of a fighter... to save as many lebanese as possible by assisting civilians to evacuate from the warzone.
the irony of modern warfare... the defender (hiz butts) trying to get as many of their own people killed, while the invader (IDF) tries to limit the enemy civlian casualties...
its almost comical that the invader is actually trying to stop the defender, who is trying so hard to kill the very people they are suppose to defend. -
Originally posted by tripwire:
At least, they should not mingle with the civilians... as the Israeli's saying goes.
that incorrect.
we are an island nation.. where do you expect the brits to evacuate us to?on the other hand... over half a million lebanese fled and left the fighting zone.. those who stayed.. either are volunteers.. [b]or simply unfortunate souls who for one reason or another could not leave.
So killing of those Unfortunate sould are alright ?but i held the hizbollah responsible for all the civilian deaths in southern lebanon.
The fighters most basic functio is to fight.
because they did not perform the most basic function of a fighter... to save as many lebanese as possible by assisting civilians to evacuate from the warzone.
With the IDF superior air firepower, the Hez are saving the civilians by not assisting them, since they can thereby be officially classified as 'Human Shield'. Remember any cars are targets according to the Leaflets.the irony of modern warfare... the defender (hiz butts) trying to get as many of their own people killed, while the invader (IDF) tries to limit the enemy civlian casualties...
Bull Sh!t Post.
its almost comical that the invader is actually trying to stop the defender, who is trying so hard to kill the very people they are suppose to defend. [/b]