4 UN soldiers Died as “Save corporal” show continues
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Hezbollah was using UN post as 'shield'
Canadian wrote of militia's presence, 'necessity' of bombing
Joel Kom, with files from Steven Edwards, CanWest News Service, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Thursday, July 27, 2006
The words of a Canadian United Nations observer written just days before he was killed in an Israeli bombing of a UN post in Lebanon are evidence Hezbollah was using the post as a "shield" to fire rockets into Israel, says a former UN commander in Bosnia.
Those words, written in an e-mail dated just nine days ago, offer a possible explanation as to why the post -- which according to UN officials was clearly marked and known to Israeli forces -- was hit by Israel on Tuesday night, said retired Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie yesterday.
The strike hit the UN observation post in the southern Lebanese village of El Khiam, killing Canadian Maj. Paeta Hess-von Kruedener and three others serving as unarmed UN military observers in the area.
Just last week, Maj. Hess-von Kruedener wrote an e-mail about his experiences after nine months in the area, words Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie said are an obvious allusion to Hezbollah tactics.
"What I can tell you is this," he wrote in an e-mail to CTV dated July 18. "We have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both (Israeli) artillery and aerial bombing.
"The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters (sic) of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters (sic) from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but rather due to tactical necessity."
Those words, particularly the last sentence, are not-so-veiled language indicating Israeli strikes were aimed at Hezbollah targets near the post, said Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie.
"What that means is, in plain English, 'We've got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces)," he said.
That would mean Hezbollah was purposely setting up near the UN post, he added. It's a tactic Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie, who was the first UN commander in Sarajevo during the Bosnia civil war, said he's seen in past international missions: Aside from UN posts, fighters would set up near hospitals, mosques and orphanages.
(for the rest of the article, click here => Canada.com) -
It’s not odd that defendant will counter accuse the victim wrong doings so as to justify his action. But one hard factor they can hardly deny is the dirty job is delivered via a precisely guided bomb which hardly has a CEP over 10 meters. Did the militia entered the UN post to launch their rocket so the Israeli can pinpoint this 2 –storey small house for brutal attack? Probably we wouldn’t have the direct answer anymore because the dead men will never talk.
As I said, it’s Ice age, never expect a fully authorized and independent Jury to access the truth , no judge will be more powerful than the bally behind the tiny Jewish state who provides the precision weapon and fuel and finance. Haven’t we seen the UN chief already soften his tone. There’re no direct wrong or right in this muddy politics, only the compromise, those with bigger jaw and muscles will win more points. Our voice is weak next to silent in the stage and one day the killing is done, the other day there will be other professionals to do the scene clean and story writing. So they can dress up the “Law 7 order” the next morning with fresh. What a wonderful day.
However, there’s always a place we call heart, we know the truth will be in every one’s soul. There’re ppl believe 6 hrs shelling and finally a precision guided missile can be “unintentional “, but I guess most of those won’t be the same, provided they know how accurate should those guided missiles are. Or in another word, it’s “pinpointed” -
Interestingly the Ottawa Citizen article quoted by the Bear said, in it's last paragraph on Page 2
If indeed Israel was attempting to hit Hezbollah fighters in the area, it hasn't yet used the excuse to explain its actions because it wouldn't make it any less guilty in the world's eyes, Capt. Forsberg said.
Even if your enemy are barbarians, theres no reason that, as a supposedly "civilized" state acting in "self-defence", you have to sink to that level. Just like targeting all ambulances in sight just because your enemy is low enough to use ambulances to transport arms. Just because the enemy does not respect the Red Cross, does not give you the excuse to do the same, especially when you're claiming the moral high ground
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,19918297-5005961,00.html -
heart and all that is fine, when you are not the target of katyusha rockets.. but that being said, the lebanese are the business end of precision bombs...
i have a theory which is so sad, it almost brings me to tears if it was true.. hear me out...
the Israelis have been taking the flak for everything.. the animosity, the hatred, the vilification... because if they had spoken the truth, no one would believe them and the anger against Israel would be amplified..
notice they took the flak and kept silent about the Al-Durah incident?
notice they are taking the flak for the UN post being blasted?
notice they keep silent about a lot of things?
could it be that the truth is so heinous, even if the evidence exonerated the Israelis, no one would believe the evidence anyway and will accuse Israel of lying?
take the Al-Durah incident.. newsbites and the news insisted that the IDF shot and killed the Palestinian father and son hiding behind a concrete barrel... there was worldwide condemnation of Israel.. and they kept quiet.. and ultimately, the incident blew over..
when independent analysis of the whole situation was made, the truth was that the Israelis could not have shot the father and son.. they were not in the position to do so as they were on the other side of the wall.. the wall shielded the father and son from the IDF.. yet they were killed... the only people who could have killed them were the cameramen or THE PALESTINIAN FIGHTERS themselves!
the cameramen who filmed the deaths of the pair were rock-steady.. which meant they were not under fire... yet, they would have been "in the line of fire" from the IDF in order to film the situation..
now, would any audience in the world believe such atrocity carried out by their own people, just for a newsbite? if the Israelis were to insist on the truth, would the world believe them? and when they would not believe them, won't the hatred and animosity be increased?
well, that's the Al-Durah incident... now let's come to this current incident...
if the Canadian UN soldier's email is true (he has no reason to lie), then look at the fallout.. in a political point of view...
if the Israelis were to push this point, that the Hezbollah was constantly using the UN post as a staging aread, a point to engage the IDF, the implications would be staggering: the UN KNOWS that Hezbollah was targetting Israel with rockets, and did NOTHING about it even when they used the UN post to fire their rockets!
this would mean that the UN is impotent, and that their presence there is totally useless, they did not report any of these crimes to anyone, and that they have failed in every way...
you think for one moment those who make up the UN would let Israel make that accusation and allow it to stick? even if it was true? that implicates all of them in a crime against a sovereign country! it would be political suicide for Israel to go against the UN..
so... Israel has to keep quiet, accept the false accusations against them.. and try to stay alive in a region where the obsession of every country around them is the destruction of Israel...
now, isn't that tragic? -
Those died UN peacekeepers are OBSERVERS, should I explain more on this word? I highly admire their commitment even in such a dangerous environment and with almost no armory, their still held their position..
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there is commitment and there is stupidity..
i would say that in the face of a barrage of incoming shells and bombs, you stand your ground feeling protected by a sky blue beret, is stupidity...
you can always move to another location and observe, and report that your post has been destroyed... rather than sit there and die saying "we are observers and are protected by the Geneva Convention"
it is tragic, but those who died when they were incessantly shelled for over 10 hours, are just asking for Darwin Awards..
as you can see, i'm a practical man..Originally posted by coolant:Those died UN peacekeepers are OBSERVERS, should I explain more on this word? I highly admire their commitment even in such a dangerous environment and with almost no armory, their still held their position.. -
Then I would say there are real soldier not because danger comes then they can abandon their post against order which may demand their to hold. Of course you could be more practical but you could NOT be better soldier.
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BTW, the UN peacekeepers are NOT stupid because they know if they move around out of clearly identified Post, they may well be the legal shooting target by the Israelis.
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Originally posted by the Bear:there is commitment and there is stupidity..
i would say that in the face of a barrage of incoming shells and bombs, you stand your ground feeling protected by a sky blue beret, is stupidity...
you can always move to another location and observe, and report that your post has been destroyed... rather than sit there and die saying "we are observers and are protected by the Geneva Convention"
it is tragic, but those who died when they were incessantly shelled for over 10 hours, are just asking for Darwin Awards..
as you can see, i'm a practical man..
Good point... i guess they didnt expect the laser guided bombs to come down on them so pin pointed. They must be hoping that random shelling n the odds ot 1 to 100000 it wont hit them. N hopefully wearing the bright blue helmet will deter the shells from raining down directly on thier heads. -
muahahhaa..
sorry... a soldier doesn't die stupidly..
if a soldier refuses to duck from an incoming bullet, i'd say that's a soldier i'd rather not have on my side
the UN idiots screwed up... they tried calling the Israelis to back off..
you know the saying right?
if at first you don't succeed, try try again.. after a while, GIVE UP! no point being a damned fool about it..
well, i would say that after over 10 hours of constant bombardment, and many calls for them to stop, the "try try again" isn't working and i'd get the hell out...
they were damned fools about it and paid the ultimate price...
and for that, Hezbollah will take advantage and use that as a propaganda weapon
UN is played like a fool... and the thing is that, no one can say anything about the sheer stupidity of UN because it'll be political suicide.. -
UN kana played around.. Security council is weak. UN will crumble eventually. Hezbollah will just use the human prpganda as usual.. innocent ppl being killed etc etc... we heard it...usual tactics...Originally posted by the Bear:muahahhaa..
sorry... a soldier doesn't die stupidly..
if a soldier refuses to duck from an incoming bullet, i'd say that's a soldier i'd rather not have on my side
the UN idiots screwed up... they tried calling the Israelis to back off..
you know the saying right?
if at first you don't succeed, try try again.. after a while, GIVE UP! no point being a damned fool about it..
well, i would say that after over 10 hours of constant bombardment, and many calls for them to stop, the "try try again" isn't working and i'd get the hell out...
they were damned fools about it and paid the ultimate price...
and for that, Hezbollah will take advantage and use that as a propaganda weapon
UN is played like a fool... and the thing is that, no one can say anything about the sheer stupidity of UN because it'll be political suicide..
If u dont succeeed... try n try again.. or else.. so much for sky diving. -
Oh, oh, oh, I c, uÂ’r in my way then IÂ’ll kill for any sake, cheerful you dead meat in my way, appreciated for sharing your true feeling, I think all of us make one another view clearly enough, thatÂ’s it.
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in my way?
sheesh... did you read the article on the top?
the UN observers were in a place which they themselves figured would become a legitimate target... because the Hezbollah was using it as a staging place for their rocket attacks...
the Israelis came to blast the Hezbollah position.. because if they did not, the rockets would be shot into Israel..
you do the math... if i was an Israeli soldier, i would not hesitate to fire on the position..
the UN, in their own stupidity, chose to become human shields for asswipes trying to fire rockets.. in that way, they cease to become verboten in a conflict...
reminds me of a comic... The Watcher.. they bloody do nothing except to watch and observe.. even when they could do something to allievate the suffering or stop violence, they didn't do a thing except to watch..
here, their insistence to stay at a position where it has become a legitimate military target has cost them their lives.. -
What legitimate? Is the post in Israeli territory or itÂ’s not fully authorized by the most internationally acceptable body to be there? Then what legitimate do those Jewish have? Other than because you are in my way?
What shield? You think the Jewish will be mercy because you blue capped guys are there so they stop firing at their enemy? NO! they already shelled that post for 6 hours, so what you r talking about that small building still got any tactic value for shielding? I said aftermath there will be some other people do story writing, but whatÂ’s the meaning? Can they go for a close check? Can they indeed release the full truth?
As I said, the key factor is the precision-guided missile that took all the lives of the UN peacekeepers NOT the stray artillery fire, which means the one carrying the killing with clear mind who going to die inside. the UN bunk built there shows UN already do not want to involve in this battle so both sides can engage each other by artillery fire free hand, however, what’s naked fact is the killing is NOT carried by the side supposed to be “ terrorist” -
i ask you one thing..
if they are firing rockets into Israel from a position, does that make it a legitimate target?
that's all you have to answer -
im just glad to see so many agree that if we can bring the number of unnecessary dead high enough, one israeli soldier's life becomes a statistic instead of a tragedy, then we can all feel a bit less misty-eyed about him.
The future is bright.
If the police forces of the world adopted the Israeli's tactics, they'd shoot innocent hostages 1st during hostage crisis just so the baddies have no one else to use as a shield. I find the justification of shelling the UN post just because the hezas were using it as a shield totally ridiculous. Its not about pragmatism or practicality. Its about how human u are. All this talk about "civilized" people not wanting to leave one of their own behind, and these civilized people don't even have qualms about shooting "hostages". Civilized MY ASS. -
so, heng, i ask you..
if you know and see that the hezbollah are going to launch rockets from that position, killing people, what do you do?
seriously now..
what do you do? -
move the people whom they are targetting away.Originally posted by the Bear:so, heng, i ask you..
if you know and see that the hezbollah are going to launch rockets from that position, killing people, what do you do?
seriously now..
what do you do?
Oh the targets refuse to move? They win the Darwinian awards too.
Even sending in a surgical strike team to hit them is preferable to firing rockets. Hey never leave anyone behind at any cost right? If they want to subscribe to that, they better be mentally prepared to adhere to it any any cost TO THEMSELVES, not to others.
Dun u find it disturbing that people are willing to adhere to their ideals as long as it only costs others, especially innocents? They are really no better than the Hezas. -
btw, the Hezbollah are not the IDF.. they do not drop leaflets telling people to evacuate
the Israelis do not know where the rockets are being fired at...
so, how would they know where to move their people away from? if they knew, and knowing the Israelis, they would.. they are not the Hezbollah who hide behind civilians and then use the civilian casualties to create more hatred
a surgical strike team.. yes.. it would be good.. however, that's up to the generals who are being criticised for their tactics even at home now...
however, it still does not remove the fact that the Hezbollah are using homes, UN posts and other "verboten" places for their attacks..
and strangely, the attacks by the Hezbollah rockets have been on civilian targets, yet have not attracted condemnation?
asymmetric war? i guess it's also an asymmetric point of view of the world...
i repeat myself so many times it's getting tiresome.. the analogy of a man tossing rocks at a hornets' nest, then hiding behind his daughter, has no right to complain afterwards that his daughter has been stung badly..Originally posted by HENG@:move the people whom they are targetting away.
Oh the targets refuse to move? They win the Darwinian awards too.
Even sending in a surgical strike team to hit them is preferable to firing rockets. Hey never leave anyone behind at any cost right? If they want to subscribe to that, they better be mentally prepared to adhere to it any any cost TO THEMSELVES, not to others. -
Rockets have a fixed range. Evacuate everyone from within that range out of its range.Originally posted by the Bear:btw, the Hezbollah are not the IDF.. they do not drop leaflets telling people to evacuate
the Israelis do not know where the rockets are being fired at...
so, how would they know where to move their people away from? if they knew, and knowing the Israelis, they would.. they are not the Hezbollah who hide behind civilians and then use the civilian casualties to create more hatred
a surgical strike team.. yes.. it would be good.. however, that's up to the generals who are being criticised for their tactics even at home now...
however, it still does not remove the fact that the Hezbollah are using homes, UN posts and other "verboten" places for their attacks..
and strangely, the attacks by the Hezbollah rockets have been on civilian targets, yet have not attracted condemnation?
asymmetric war? i guess it's also an asymmetric point of view of the world...
i repeat myself so many times it's getting tiresome.. the analogy of a man tossing rocks at a hornets' nest, then hiding behind his daughter, has no right to complain afterwards that his daughter has been stung badly..
Somehow I just do not see knowingly firing on innocents as any more humane than people who use innocents as shields.
notice im only matching my opinion to the facts. I haven't said its right of the Heza to do what they're doing. I'm saying its WRONG of the Israelis to have done what they did.
Its only asymmetrical to someone who wishes to see it as asymmetrical. I look back thru the posts, and nobody's said the Heza are right. Anyone critical of the Israelis are being so because they didn't give a damn about the human shields, which puts them on the same level of disregard for human lives as the heza. And please, its easy to drop leaflets to tell people to move. Dropping leaflets and then shelling an area u know damn well is still chock full of innocents doesn't make them have any more regards for innocent lives. If thats a way of assuaging their conscience, its a damn convenient and cheap way of doing it.
This whole discussion is about what the Israelis did, so lets keep it on that, and save the debate on what whether the Hezas are right or not for another thread. Chances is that, u'll see most people will condemn them as well, because the world is less asymmetrical than u think.
Anyways back to the point. Im amused by your comparism. Are u saying the Israelis are about as mindless as hornets then? I'm sure they're a tad smarter, so lets use an example that fits better.
Assuming u have a son, if your son was taken hostage by some guy, and the police despatched to the scene were more interested in killing him than in rescuing your son, and decided to just open fire without regard for your son's life and killing him in the process, are u going to say the police are blameless? -
Well, theoretically, the UN post is Not the legitimate military target, though because of its proximity to the real target, which is the militia moving around the building to position themselves, it could well fall in the artilleryÂ’s CEP thus effectively becomes part of the artillery targeting. However, thatÂ’s only applicable to common unguided Artillery and rockets.Originally posted by the Bear:i ask you one thing..
if they are firing rockets into Israel from a position, does that make it a legitimate target?
that's all you have to answer
The fact is (should I repeated again?), the deaths were caused by guided bunk buster , then, the building is NOT legitimate military target because we so far never heard the post was overturned by the militia. Israeli just canÂ’t pin-pointly attack the neutral target.
If it had been occupied by the militia, it would still be morally not legitimate for Israeli just killing all, inclusive of hostage as Heng already said in his post. -
since you are so morally correct... would you do us the honor of telling the hizbollahs to stop using innocent people and neutral third party as shield for their endless rocketing on isreali civilians.Originally posted by coolant:Well, theoretically, the UN post is Not the legitimate military target, though because of its proximity to the real target, which is the militia moving around the building to position themselves, it could well fall in the artilleryÂ’s CEP thus effectively becomes part of the artillery targeting. However, thatÂ’s only applicable to common unguided Artillery and rockets.
The fact is (should I repeated again?), the deaths were caused by guided bunk buster , then, the building is NOT legitimate military target because we so far never heard the post was overturned by the militia. Israeli just canÂ’t pin-pointly attack the neutral target.
If it had been occupied by the militia, it would still be morally not legitimate for Israeli just killing all, inclusive of hostage as Heng already said in his post.
it would be morally wrong for you not to intervene... and go to lebanon.. and persuade the hizbollah. -
2 questions Bear:
- Were there rockets being fired from near the UN post *at the time*? No one knows, but judging from they way the area was being shelled for the past few hours before the bomb hits, I say unlikely
- Even if there was, how far were they launch positions from the UN post? Was it reasonable to expect that the distance between the UN post and the launch position was so close that a laser-guided bomb will score a direct hit on the post when it missed the target? Again, I'd say unlikely
As for Israel keeping quiet, I'm sorry but what planet have you been on? Look at how the Lobby influences the media, such that even some Americans are complaining that the Israeli press is more critical of Israel than the American press. Go watch the Google video link posted earlier, and come tell us again if Israel suffers in silence when "wrongly accused".
And yes, as a soldier, you remain at your post till you're told otherwise. Anything else is cowardice, like the German policemen who used "democracy" as a (bad) excuse for cowardice inside the Boeing 727 during the bungled rescue of the Israeli athletes during the Munich Olympics massacre.
The day states stoop to the level of terrorists and criminals, supposedly to fight them, humankind is in trouble. -
hmm.. are we talking EVERYTHING here?
i would say that the Israelis keep quiet when it serves them.. and the reason they keep quiet about some things, are really sad...
and notice your reaction when i said they "keep quiet"
that is the reason why they would
it's a strange world of politics...
toxic waste looks squeaky clean beside it
oh well.. whatever the hell we say, isn't going to change anything unless states stop supporting the lunacy which is happening there...
and you see that happening? -
Touching, but exaggerated and totally untrue. The only ones who are avowed to that are Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas and a few fringe groups who have no chance in hell of being able to do that (except maybe for a nuclear Iran which hasn't happened yet). Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Jordan (which are THE countries around Israel) have renounced that and acknolwledged Israel's right to exist, as has Fatah and all the other Arab countries(Iran is Persian).Originally posted by the Bear:and try to stay alive in a region where the obsession of every country around them is the destruction of Israel...