Chinese-made M16, M4A1 assault rifles
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Interesting pic i found, NORINCO (China North Industries Corporation) made copy of American AR-15 Rifles, some of these guns was found in the hands of North Korea Soldiers disguising as south korean troops infiltrating South Korea
http://www.sinodefence.com/army/small_arms/cqrifle.asp -
China best at piracy.
The quality does look quite good to me. -
The M4 looks authentic, however the M16's butt looks like its got a notch on the bottom of the butt.
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Norinco have made M16 type rifle for a long time ! I remeber 1st comming ot the US and they were selling some M16A1 clone with a funny looking pistol grip and hand guard.
but those clones is defeintly neat ! wonder how much are these rifles??
DaveC -
I heard it's no longer sold in states as it ran into IP problem with ColtOriginally posted by davechng:Norinco have made M16 type rifle for a long time ! I remeber 1st comming ot the US and they were selling some M16A1 clone with a funny looking pistol grip and hand guard.
but those clones is defeintly neat ! wonder how much are these rifles??
DaveC -
Because Norinco is blacklisted by states for alleged exporting sensitive technologies to countries like Iran and so on.Originally posted by Texcoco II:I heard it's no longer sold in states as it ran into IP problem with Colt -
Looks like a pretty "slip shot" copy of the M16 in my opinion.
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There is a pic of female PLA soldiers with M16 clones on parade in another thread, "Female soldiers around the World".
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I think the patent thing is over on the AR15/M16 rifle.. COlt is still tryingto hold on to a product they don;t already own. FN is making M16 for the US military! COlt Is only doing the M4.. but with the new stuff comming in like the HK416! COlt is losing its foothold everyday.
Now we have so many good Mfr on the Ar15,M16... Bushmaster, Stagarms, Rockriver arms, CMMG etc etc... all make better product than the COlt
COlt has shoot themselve in the foot by not producing anything innovative .. they neglect the military and civilian mkt ! only now they are trying to come back.. Such a sad case to see them in this stage.
Takes competition to wake them up! HEard they are comming out with a piston based M16... which they should have done yrs back from them IMHO.
NOw we have so much choices on M16 products.. COlt would be last in my list!
DAveC -
Originally posted by tankee1981:There is a pic of female PLA soldiers with M16 clones on parade in another thread, "Female soldiers around the World".
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I'm surprised that Colt doesn't sue Norinco. Especially since Norinco is even sticking their logo on the rifle. Hasn't China already joined WTO? Or is trying to?
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Colt lost a trademark infringement lawsuit against Bushmaster back in December of 2005, so it's highly unlikely that they'll be pursuing further legal action against other AR-pattern rifle manufacturers, either at home or abroad. And even if they wanted to, I doubt Colt has the financial and legal clout to take on a state-owned enterprise like Norinco.Originally posted by insouciant:I'm surprised that Colt doesn't sue Norinco. Especially since Norinco is even sticking their logo on the rifle. Hasn't China already joined WTO? Or is trying to?
The AR design can, for all intents and purposes, be considered public domain; witness the plethora of companies (some of whom aren't even primarily in the firearms business!) manufacturing parts for the rifle. -
Ahhh... Thanks!
Hmm... If that is the case, why didn't STK modify the AR design to suit our needs that design from scratch.. Unless SAF was that insistent on a bullpup design.
Still think an M4 type weopon would suit our needs better. We could always add the 1.5x scope and the LAD if SAF really thought it was critical. -
For all intents and purposes, STK at one time DID consider building a "improved" M16/M4 clone with all the bells and whistles, but the idea was quietly dropped once they discovered they did not bring anything new to the market. It's not like the world needs yet another M16/M4 clone.
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I know we all love the M16 type rifles and I am another avid fan of it.. however, if we want to go with the M4/M16.. the gas system have to go ~Taiwan and Korea and lots of country makes a good piston based M16.... makes the gun runs alot cleaner and maintaince will be much better.
Bullpup has its advantage and disadvantage. but given a choice if I have somthing like a well design piston based M4 !I take that anyday to any bullpup!
DaveC -
I'm with bullpup, easier to reload when yer sitting in something. And I like the shorter length.
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hi SingaporeTyrannosaurOriginally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:I'm with bullpup, easier to reload when yer sitting in something. And I like the shorter length.
Bullpup is great on certain things, however, I did a 3 gun match once with my Steyr AUG and changing magazine is IMHO slower than my M16 and very awkward... and clearing room from our weakside is also not as conforming as the conventional rifle ( M16, AK type)
However, I like the bullpup handles when shooting standing, it feels more balance than M16 which have a muzzle heavy symton... remeber M16A3 and A4 all have the heavier barrel.
DaveC -
No doubt about that, changing mags in a bullpup will be a pickle even if you are quite well versed. But I feel it is offset by the fact that it is easier to use standing up then a normal design (important in FIBUA).
In a sense you are trading off a few moments to reload for 30 rounds of easier shooting... which is probably more important then reloading time. I think more soldiers are killed by missing their shots when they are taking them instead of while reloading. I find a bullpup much easier to aim as well.
Clearing corners from our non master side? I'm not sure how that's harder given the tatics could be altered but not being able to shoot from a left-handed position might be a reason.
But then again its a matter of tatics, to play up the strengths of the bullpup while making up for the weakness. -
Wouldn't the shorter length of the M4 be almost similar to a bullpup without the reloading issues?
I agree with you in that the bullpup is nice to handle in a urban enviroment versus the standard M16 due to its shorter. But find the weight a big drawback. Especially if the poor fellow carries the eventual M203/SAR21 (if it ever comes out). -
True, but does the world really need another bullpup either?Originally posted by SlowPoke:For all intents and purposes, STK at one time DID consider building a "improved" M16/M4 clone with all the bells and whistles, but the idea was quietly dropped once they discovered they did not bring anything new to the market. It's not like the world needs yet another M16/M4 clone.
I guess at the end of the day, we should just get the best possible weopon, and not necessarily design something that we think is different for marketing purposes.
But then again, we still suffer from "made by the lowest bidder" theory huh? -
I'm not sure if the SAR21 is just another bullpup. It was certainly made firstly for Singapore in mind... in terms of operating costs, upkeep and the like. The SAR is certainly far cheaper then keeping with the M16 line, and certainly has a lot more life in the design then the Aug series.
As to how the grunts like it, that's another issue as well. But so far the verdict has been split. It is obvious those who used the M16 before switching to the SAR might have grouses... but now we are getting a new batch of troops that have never touched the M16 before (esp. the Mono intakes), or learned the M16 after the SAR, and it turns out many of them prefer the SAR. It seems very subjective.
But in terms of cost and upkeep, as well as potential life of the design. The SAR certainly trumps the M16 line for our purposes at least. -
There's a Canadian chap at Modern Firearms Forum called Luckyorwhat whom purchased one of these funny Norinco M-16. Youc an talk to him about it.Originally posted by davechng:but those clones is defeintly neat ! wonder how much are these rifles??
DaveC
http://ub3.homepagetools.com/modern_firearms/UltraBoard.pl?Session= -
I guess you are right as once us old M16 fogies are phased out everyone will get used to the SAR and learn to like it.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:I'm not sure if the SAR21 is just another bullpup. It was certainly made firstly for Singapore in mind... in terms of operating costs, upkeep and the like. The SAR is certainly far cheaper then keeping with the M16 line, and certainly has a lot more life in the design then the Aug series.
As to how the grunts like it, that's another issue as well. But so far the verdict has been split. It is obvious those who used the M16 before switching to the SAR might have grouses... but now we are getting a new batch of troops that have never touched the M16 before (esp. the Mono intakes), or learned the M16 after the SAR, and it turns out many of them prefer the SAR. It seems very subjective.
But in terms of cost and upkeep, as well as potential life of the design. The SAR certainly trumps the M16 line for our purposes at least.
I have to admit I like the 1.5x scope (when it isn't fogged up) and shorter length.
Maybe SAF just need to solve the multiple different magazine problem (assume they are working on it if they don't already have a plan), intro a SAR21 with GL and speed up intro of the SAR to all units. -
agree that the bullpup feels much more balance and thus stability on firing.. as for most bullpup, ( I have not shot the SAR21) but comparing to some of the bullpup I have handle like the AUG, Valmet 82,FN P2000 it is plaque by mediocre trigger pull. AUG is notorious on that,
for clearing CQB type actions, bullpup is more how should I say awkward than conventional arms like the MP5, M4 type setup. less flexible when you are on the wrong side of the corner. since the ejection port will be at your face!...
I guess bullppup over conventional rifle design is a choice thing ! Some people like one over the other.... BMW or Benz!
M4 having a shorter barrel will be disadvantage to have especially for the 5.56 ammo which needs the longer barrel to get the extra ummph when hitting target.
Don;t get me wrong, throw me a AUG or P2000 I can still do well!!.
DaveC! -
The sluggish trigger pull on bullpups come from their complex system of linkage rods and stuff... the SAR 21 is supposed to solve (or at least reduce) this problem by using a solid sliding plate... I haven't shot any other bullpups before so I don't know how it fares against them (but some reports say it's an improvement).
The trigger pull is certainly clunkier opposed to the M-16 (as expected), but I don't think it really makes me a worse shot in all that I have used it, and I could still get double taps with it during section life fire.
So it works... for me. For length it is certainly produces far more muzzle velocity then the M4 (thanks to the standard length barrel), which is quite important given the 5.56 is a small round, and the velocity can be critical in making sure if a round fails and fragments inside the target's body from the high energies as opposed to a slower round simply passing through and leaving little more then a minor penetration wound (unless a vital is hit).