Israeli Covette sunk
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I have been doing some backtrack news reading... I was overseas.
It seemed suspicious.. that the Saar 5 captain himself said that it was a drone.. then the next day says it's a C-802. If it were the C-802, the covette would have done a Bow-to-stern clap and does a Titanic ..
After reading thru the past articles.. It seems that the Israelis are trying ttheir best to link everything they can to the Iranians.
First, the Israel cliamed that the two captured Soldier were being sent to Iran
.. how the hel could that be possible, unless ignorant people does not bother to see the middle East maps.. they would have to go thru Turkey and Iraq. We're not even sure whether the Israelis soldiers were on the right side of the border ??
Then when the IDF shells and bombard Lebanon, and they retaliate , Israel says that the Lebanese are going against the "rule".. What Rules ??? they even dare to demand that the Lebanese stop their rocket attacks.. but in no where did the Israelis says they will stop theirs
To further hyporate the situation, Israel is planning to have a 200 km buffer zone ?? Expansion ??? It seems Gaza and West bank is not enough????
Much Worst the champion of the Human rights country -USA has Veto the UN peace keeping force ??? What Logic ??? Simply Israel and US are Gangster..
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They are never really 'champions' of human rights. They merely use human right abuse as an excuse to interfere in other countries' internal affairs. One recent example is the Guantanamo Bay detention camp in Cuba.
Economic and military might is the way to go in international politics. Without money and weapons, your country will be pushed around by others. This is the unspoken fact of international relations throughout the ages. -
Woah. u are getting close.Originally posted by MobyDog:I have been doing some backtrack news reading... I was overseas.
It seemed suspicious.. that the Saar 5 captain himself said that it was a drone.. then the next day says it's a C-802. If it were the C-802, the covette would have done a Bow-to-stern clap and does a Titanic ..
After reading thru the past articles.. It seems that the Israelis are trying ttheir best to link everything they can to the Iranians.
First, the Israel cliamed that the two captured Soldier were being sent to Iran .. how the hel could that be possible, unless ignorant people does not bother to see the middle East maps.. they would have to go thru Turkey and Iraq. We're not even sure whether the Israelis soldiers were on the right side of the border ??
Then when the IDF shells and bombard Lebanon, and they retaliate , Israel says that the Lebanese are going against the "rule".. What Rules ??? they even dare to demand that the Lebanese stop their rocket attacks.. but in no where did the Israelis says they will stop theirs
To further hyporate the situation, Israel is planning to have a 200 km buffer zone ?? Expansion ??? It seems Gaza and West bank is not enough????
Much Worst the champion of the Human rights country -USA has Veto the UN peace keeping force ??? What Logic ??? Simply Israel and US are Gangster..
The whole timing is rather coincidental don't u think?
First N.Korea tests their missiles, openly defying the US. The US realises the possibility of another front in the Far East is likely and no doubt gonna be very taxing on their military capabilities to handle since they are already very commited to the Middle East situation.
A few days ago, Israeli attack Lebanon, to "rescue" their captured soldiers, and cites Iran and Syria being likely to be involved. The open attack on Lebanon demonstrates the ability and willingness to go to war if they deem it necessary. Coincidence that Iran also openly challenged the US in their decision to go nuclear.
I feel that the US is trying to send a signal to both North Korea and Iran. Perhaps it maybe something in the tune of, "i'm stretched, but I'm not alone." -
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Originally posted by 38�Ž:A glance at SAAR 5 missile boat:
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/saar5/
wow.. this got to be labelled at least a frigate in singapore context. just look at the size..
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Not exactly, at least personally IÂ’ll vote Aster 15 is still better than the BarakOriginally posted by YI:wow.. this got to be labelled at least a frigate in singapore context. just look at the size..
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for a 1227 ton boat, it is certainly armed to the teeth. Even better armed than the formidable class.
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sheesshh...this is getting complicated by the day..
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Whether the missile was a dud or not is immaterial. It's the fact an opponent missile penetrated the defenses of an advanced Western warship. ItÂ’s interesting that excuses are made like the defenses were turned off. Interesting since the Israeli military is such reputed as being one of the most experience force in the world. They didn't see the enemy in possession of such hardware so their guard was down? Well how about the terrorist tactic of driving a small boat up loaded with explosives. Were they ready for that or caught their pants down X 2? I saw the video of supposedly the missile striking the ship at sea. It was night and that missile was like a flare shooting across the sky before you saw the explosion. If that's what it's like, at least no one on the ship saw that coming?Originally posted by equlus84:But if it is a modern anti ship missile, the corvette would have sunk long ago rite? Btw, if it is realli a C802 by the Chinese, it post as a new interesting dimension. Firstly, it would mean the Chinese have reached a high lvl of technological advancement in the arena of weapon making. Another point is that the Chinese QC is so poor that the missile did not explode as expected. -
the damaged Covette
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The Israelis are experienced with land and air warfare,not naval warfare.
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Pardon me but where is the damage? There are reports that there is a fire but there seems like there is no signs of fire from this pic. And those two black marks on the waterline is due to the exhaust.Originally posted by 38�Ž:the damaged Covette
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/naval/saar5/Saar5.html
Please take note of the two holes on the starboard side of the vessel in the above pic. This pic of the Saar 5 is not the one of the damaged corvette but taken before the attack. -
The damaged area( A hole as reported by official Israeli source) is covered by a blanket as you can see and burned signs can be seen everywhere in the sternOriginally posted by tankee1981:Pardon me but where is the damage? There are reports that there is a fire but there seems like there is no signs of fire from this pic. And those two black marks on the waterline is due to the exhaust.
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/naval/saar5/Saar5.html
Please take note of the two holes on the starboard side of the vessel in the above pic. This pic of the Saar 5 is not the one of the damaged corvette but taken before the attack. -
-.-! okay, im not a ship expert, but i still cant see the damage...Originally posted by 38�Ž:The damaged area( A hole as reported by official Israeli source) is covered by a blanket as you can see and burned signs can be seen everywhere in the stern -
Could be the different colored patch in the first pic.
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Not really....they are actually the 1st ones to use ECM (Electronic Counter Measure) to counter the Egyptian Navy and sank their vessels with their Gabriel Missile during the Yon Kippur war...if I remember corrcetly...n they were the ones who train our navy when we first got our MGBsOriginally posted by SpecOps87:The Israelis are experienced with land and air warfare,not naval warfare. -
Actually they look like they were designed with "stealth" features. Interesting that even with the lower radar signature they were targeted by a guerilla grp and struck!
Have to wonder how effective our own stealth frigates are. -
Hit by an RPG? I thought it was an antiship missile?
Hmm... put a chopper on deck and no matter how stealthy you are radar will pick you up soon enough. And yes the Covette does look reduced-RCS, but I don't think it was built for specialized stealth... at least going by the number of things people have hung out there to clutter the design.
But that aside, your technological advantage only works if you use the tatics that make full use of them. It is no excuse for underestimating your opponent setting yourself up to be able to be hurt by them. Technology should be used to help you fight better, not as an excuse to get sloppy.
So will our 'stealth' frigates kick butt? Yes, but only if we know how to use them. Nobody but fools would assume just because you have a good ship you are going to fight a good battle. -
Becos that is not the damaged ship, the ship that was hit, no pix was ever released.Originally posted by Shotgun:-.-! okay, im not a ship expert, but i still cant see the damage...
Those black stuff near the hull is actually black soot from the exhaust as I read elsewhere.
As for ASM, there are conflicting report, some said silkworm , and some said is C802, but most say is likely the smaller version, C701 of Chinese origin.
C701 is relatively small missile meant for FAC and patrol size boat, not any larger than a corvette.
Another thing I heard was that missile actually did not detonate but actually struck the fuel line for Helo that cause the fire. -
My sense is that even an unexploded C802 will carry more punch aka much more damage to the vessel than it has appeared. The C802’s 165kg semi-armor-piercing warhead with hundreds kg of unburned fuel could still be no joke to the SAAR 5’s slim body. The IDF’s investigation reveals that the missile( C802) indeed has exploded but above the stern and caused a hole in the copter deck , the sailors are dead beneath the deck, the impact may suggest there were no Copter then or the copter would have taken the impact. The funny thing is in the below IDF investigation report, it said the sea skimming missile” exploded above" but still can casue " a hole"...
Navy probe blames faulty intelligence for missile ship hit
http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/DocView.asp?did=1000114951&fid=1725
The Israeli warship's crew had only twenty seconds in which to identify the threat and respond.
Amnon Barzilai 20 Jul 06 17:18
An Israel Navy investigation into last Friday's strike on the missile ship "Hanit" has found that the only fault was the lack of intelligence that Hizbullah had Iranian C-807 missiles. The investigation also found that the actions of the Hanit's crew were based on information supplied by IDF Military Intelligence, and that there was no negligence in applying operational procedures.
The investigation found that at around 8 pm the Iranian-made missile was fired at the missile ship and exploded above it. The explosion and shock wave caused a fire and a hole in the vessel. Four crew were at first reported missing; they were later found dead.
According to the results of the investigation, in the absence of intelligence about anti-ship missiles, no such threat was defined in advance, and the missile ships' systems were deployed in standby mode and not in ready-to-fire mode.
Although the ship's defense systems spotted the incoming Iranian missile, the problem was cognitive. Because of the missile's speed and the short distance of the ship from shore (16 kilometers), and because the crew was unprepared for this kind of threat, the radar and electronic warfare systems operators had only 20 seconds to realize that they were under attack by an enemy missile.
The probe also found that a greater disaster was only narrowly avoided. Hizbullah fired two missiles at the ship. One missile hit and destroyed a Cambodian vessel with an Egyptian crew sailing a few dozen kilometers from the Israeli missile ship. The second missile hit the Israeli warship. Luckily, for unknown reasons, Hizbullah did not fire a third missile. The assessment is that a third missile could have sunk the Israeli ship.
Published by Globes [online], Israel business news - www.globes.co.il - on July 20, 2006 -
Nah, it did not detonate:
A preliminary Israel Navy investigation into the circumstances surrounding the missile strike suffered by the Sa'ar 5 Eilat-class missile corvette IN Hanit has acknowledged that the incident was largely the result of an intelligence failure that led to operational gaps.
http://www.janes.com/defence/naval_forces/news/jni/jni060728_1_n.shtml
Early indications are that the warhead of the Iranian-supplied Noor anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) that hit Hanit off Lebanon on 14 July did not detonate. Even so, the missile - fired by Hizbullah forces - killed four crew and inflicted severe damage to the ship's flight deck and steering systems.
According to Major General Gadi Eisenkott, the Israel Defence Force (IDF) Chief of Operations, Hizbullah operatives received targeting information from the Lebanese Navy's radar station in Beirut. "That is why we destroyed all the radar stations along the Lebanese shore immediately after the attack," he said.
Israel has accused Iran of deploying military advisers alongside Hizbullah to enable the deployment and operation of the Noor system - a clone of the Chinese C-802/YJ-2 'Saccade' radar-guided ASCM.
"From now on we have to assume that every weapon that exists in Iran has also been supplied to Hizbullah in Lebanon," a senior IDF source told Jane's. "We are prepared for more surprises," said Maj Gen Eisenkot.
204 of 819 words
One thing, the title does not corresponds to the subjecr matter!!! -
I think it is most probabily a C701 missile. According to China defense webby, these type of missile is helicopter mounted, much like the penguin MK2 missile. It cannot sink a large ship, but can force the enemy crew to abandon it's mission. BTW, since the ship is shelling the coastline at such close proximity, you can imagine ppl at the coastline already spotting them.
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We are not clear the “warhead never detonated indication” from Jane’s is Jane’s own judgment or Israeli source, but indication at least is not to the level of “confirmed”, anyway, such “indication” is in direct contradiction to the Israeli official source claiming the missile “ exploded above”
HereÂ’s the full article
JANE'S NAVY INTERNATIONAL - SEPTEMBER 01, 2006
Intelligence failure led to strike on Hanit
By Alon Ben-David and Richard Scott
* INS Hanit, hit by a missile off Lebanon's coast, did not have its self-defence systems fully activated at the time of the Hizbullah attack
* The Israel Navy has acknowledged that a lack of prior intelligence caused it to underestimate the threat level off Lebanon
A preliminary Israel Navy investigation into the circumstances surrounding the missile strike suffered by the Sa'ar 5 Eilat-class missile corvette IN Hanit has acknowledged that the incident was largely the result of an intelligence failure that led to operational gaps.
Early indications are that the warhead of the Iranian-supplied Noor anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) that hit Hanit off Lebanon on 14 July did not detonate. Even so, the missile - fired by Hizbullah forces - killed four crew and inflicted severe damage to the ship's flight deck and steering systems.
Hanit, part of a force of Israeli naval vessels enforcing a blockade on Lebanon, was hit at approximately 2015 h local time on the evening of 14 July while approximately 16 km off Beirut. Two Noor missiles were fired from a coastal site: one struck Hanit aft while the second sank a Cambodian merchant ship 60 km off shore. The 12 crew of the latter vessel were all rescued. On paper, the Sa'ar 5 is well equipped to defend itself against the Noor threat, being fitted with the Barak-1 point defence missile system, a Phalanx close-in weapon system, the NS-9005 multibeam jammer and the Deseaver soft-kill decoy system. However, it appears that Hanit was caught unaware by the attack and that its self-defences were not fully activated at the time. At such short range, the missile would have only had about a minute of flying time from crossing the coastline to striking its target. It cruises at a height of 30 m or 20 m, then descends to a final attack altitude of 7 m or 5 m. Local sunset was at 1850 so the missile made its approach in darkness. Flying under turbojet power, it offered minimal visual signature to Hanit's lookouts. "We were not aware that Hizbullah possessed that kind of missile," admitted Rear Admiral Noam Faig, Israel Navy Head of Operations. "We are familiar with that missile from other areas, but assumed that this threat was not present in Lebanon."
The impact caused a fire in Hanit's aft section and caused substantial damage to the flight deck area, but was ultimately contained and the ship limped back to Ashdod. Its automatic fire-protection system closed up the rear section, where the four servicemen who died were trapped. "The crew managed to put out the fire and regain some independent sailing capabilities," said Rear Adm Faig. "Hanit lost its steering and we had to tow it with another ship until the crew partially fixed the steering."
Another Israel Navy source told Jane's: "It's true that the Sa'ar 5 could easily handle radar-guided missiles, but we were just not expecting this kind of short-range threat. It's a very painful blow, but it could have been worse if they had hit another section of the ship and sunk it." According to Major General Gadi Eisenkott, the Israel Defence Force (IDF) Chief of Operations, Hizbullah operatives received targeting information from the Lebanese Navy's radar station in Beirut. "That is why we destroyed all the radar stations along the Lebanese shore immediately after the attack," he said. Israel has accused Iran of deploying military advisers alongside Hizbullah to enable the deployment and operation of the Noor system - a clone of the Chinese C-802/YJ-2 'Saccade' radar-guided ASCM. "The Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps [IRGC] has maintained a constant presence in Lebanon's Baka'a Valley since the early 1980s," said a senior IDF source.
"They have been training Hizbullah and supplying them with advanced weapons. I can't determine for certain that IRGC personnel were present during the launch of the missile, but they have certainly supplied the Hizbullah with a top-end missile, providing them capabilities which many countries do not have.
"From now on we have to assume that every weapon that exists in Iran has also been supplied to Hizbullah in Lebanon," a senior IDF source told Jane's. "We are prepared for more surprises," said Maj Gen Eisenkot. Senior IDF sources were furious that the Israel Navy had not taken into account the existence of such missiles in Lebanon. "The air force has been flying in Lebanon as if all known threats exist there and taking all precautions," Jane's was told. "The navy should have done the same." By any standards, the C802 is not an easy missile to deploy clandestinely. Its launch crew would require extensive training, while the minimum convoy that would make up an operational unit would be a radar/command truck, a power-generating truck and a single launch vehicle. In the original Chinese system, all three are heavy six-wheeled trucks. The radar mounted on the roof of the radar/command truck only has a range out to the horizon, so a single battery would have needed knowledge of the approximate location of potential targets.
On 16 July, Israeli air and naval forces destroyed several Lebanese Army radar stations; Israeli press reports claimed that these had participated in the attack against Hanit.
Israel innovates for the asymmetric, jni.janes.com, 21.03.06
Jane's Strategic Weapon Systems, jsws.janes.com