River-crossing
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I know that for safety during training, the top hatches of armoured vehicles are opened with the personnel standing out of them while donning life jackets. My question is what is the SOP for such operation while in war time. Thanks
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ask your commanders....Originally posted by tankee1981:I know that for safety during training, the top hatches of armoured vehicles are opened with the personnel standing out of them while donning life jackets. My question is what is the SOP for such operation while in war time. Thanks -
i believed he IS the commander.
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Hey! SM1 no river crossing without bridge so its only natural that i don't know.
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For the bx, the driver has to do so open hatch, because its a known fact he will drown in there.
When swimming, half the engine is underwater, which means half the driver's cockpit is too. I don't think I need to answer for the crew either. Fcuk, when the bx has to swim you can't see who's doing what anyway, they could be sunbathing, and you might not even guess. -
i think in war they won't make armoured vehs swim. they probably will try to find as many ways to get across the river, with swimming the last choice.
there are many bridges available to the army now.14-18m bridges -
Having the ability to swim have the advantage of striking where it is least expected and of course will save time as bridging still need time.
But the vehicle while swimming is the most vulnerable as it is in the open and moving quite slowly. This risk can be minimised by having other vehicles to cover those crossing. -
Ha..Cover is one thing..But to imagine the sight of chains of vehicle swimming across a waterbody...Hmmm just seem like little ducklings taking a sunbath...Originally posted by tankee1981:Having the ability to swim have the advantage of striking where it is least expected and of course will save time as bridging still need time.
But the vehicle while swimming is the most vulnerable as it is in the open and moving quite slowly. This risk can be minimised by having other vehicles to cover those crossing.
Bombard bombard Bombard and Sink Sink Sink... -
In singapore we are so used to water crossing at surveyed sites etc. What about points of ingress and egress, approaches, holding area, local and far security...
I am but a simple pioneer, wave flag, mark lanes etc only. -
One night we were recceing in a boat possible landing sites along the north shore of SIngapore. At one point we were rowing across a river mouth - where the river meets the sea.
It was really shallow and calm on the surface, but the current underneath was so strong that it almost swept out paddles away from our hands. -
Originally posted by moca
There is a chinese saying "qi1 shan1 mo4 qi1 shui3", when directly translated, roughly means that we can look down on mountains but not of water bodies. This means that there are many hidden dangers when encountering water (eg strong currents), therefore one must never let his guard down when dealing with water bodies with seemingly calm surfaces.
It was really shallow and calm on the surface, but the current underneath was so strong that it almost swept out paddles away from our hands.
Hope my explanation is good enough. If not pls make necessary corrections. -
Maybe they shud just put spare air inside the vehicles that have to swim. In case the vehicle swim, the driver or whoever still got a short 5 min supply of air to get out.
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My friend is in a specialised engineer unit that is supposed to do beach reconnaisance ( which include river banks). In fact , he is at brigade level. So before the brigade engineer recce team arrives, there is the likelyhood that other recce teams ( e.g. from CDO, from NDU ) have already scouted the place and reported back. The engineer recce team is to go there to confirm, even do ground sampling to test for hardness etc etc and start marking lanes and such.Originally posted by baer:In singapore we are so used to water crossing at surveyed sites etc. What about points of ingress and egress, approaches, holding area, local and far security...
I am but a simple pioneer, wave flag, mark lanes etc only.
Pretty standard "SOP". There are many activities that link up to a battle plan. The jobs that we do in NS is just one of these activities --- a small part. Unfortunately, we see only a small picture this way. But if you are attached to Division or Brigade Ops, you get to see how the commanders stitch together the activities of the smaller units. -
14 -18 m bridges ?? those are of drains and small streams haha !!!Originally posted by beavan:i think in war they won't make armoured vehs swim. they probably will try to find as many ways to get across the river, with swimming the last choice.
there are many bridges available to the army now.14-18m bridges
Let me introduce you to the real river crossing system.
This is the US ribbon bridge, this one is build in iraq , russia version is the PMP bridge.
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u are talking about completely different bridging system.
the one in the picture is a float bridge, we have our equivalent being done by 35 SCE. the ability to have such a long bridge will also depend on site conditions, the one in the picture appears to be constructed right beside an existing bridge site, river conditions seems to be pretty stable. try constructing a long float bridge beside a fast moving river and u'll start seeing the bridge tearing apart.
float bridges are more of tactical support bridges, more for follow on forces, not the ones which u want to construct in the midst of a battle.
the 10-18m or even the 26m Bionix launched bridge falls under assualt bridges, organic to armour units. used when the forces encountered gaps or water bodies that the forces cannot ford or jump across.
u go look at US army's bridging inventory and u can see close simliarity with singapore's assets. Wolverine bridging units which are similiar to our bionix launched bridge. they are looking for a new HSSB to replace the manual bailey bridge system.
for your info, we have stopped using bailey bridges long long ago and already got their equivalent of HSSB for almost 10 years already -
Please stop mixing up field engineers or armour engineer bridges for river crossing. For those that we call rivers is what you mention in term of field and armour engineering bridges is too short for it . You think a river is 10-20m ? that a stream. A river is can be over 50 - 200m or even more.Originally posted by khaiseng:u are talking about completely different bridging system.
the one in the picture is a float bridge, we have our equivalent being done by 35 SCE. the ability to have such a long bridge will also depend on site conditions, the one in the picture appears to be constructed right beside an existing bridge site, river conditions seems to be pretty stable. try constructing a long float bridge beside a fast moving river and u'll start seeing the bridge tearing apart.
float bridges are more of tactical support bridges, more for follow on forces, not the ones which u want to construct in the midst of a battle.
the 10-18m or even the 26m Bionix launched bridge falls under assualt bridges, organic to armour units. used when the forces encountered gaps or water bodies that the forces cannot ford or jump across.
u go look at US army's bridging inventory and u can see close simliarity with singapore's assets. Wolverine bridging units which are similiar to our bionix launched bridge. they are looking for a new HSSB to replace the manual bailey bridge system.
for your info, we have stopped using bailey bridges long long ago and already got their equivalent of HSSB for almost 10 years already
It is possible to construct a long bridge even in a fast moving water, what the picture of the ribbon bridge did not show, is usually they have a work boat connected to different section of the bridge. By using their motor, they are able to use forward and backward to hold the whole bridge in place even in swift current. In the worst situation, of the current too strong, instead of building a bridge, they be using rafting operation to cross. -
most normal will be rafting...Originally posted by tankee1981:Hey! SM1 no river crossing without bridge so its only natural that i don't know. -
Sounds like the tugboats & candace pontoons of 35 SCE at work.Originally posted by storywolf:It is possible to construct a long bridge even in a fast moving water, what the picture of the ribbon bridge did not show, is usually they have a work boat connected to different section of the bridge. By using their motor, they are able to use forward and backward to hold the whole bridge in place even in swift current. In the worst situation, of the current too strong, instead of building a bridge, they be using rafting operation to cross. -
Same theory applies to all floating bridges - ribbon bridges , PMP or what Singapore have. In fact most of them are copy from the russia design of pontoon system which was effective.Originally posted by sgf:Sounds like the tugboats & candace pontoons of 35 SCE at work. -
bridges are tempting strategic targets. destory it and u cut 1 lifeline of your aggressorOriginally posted by tiggersgd:most normal will be rafting...
if 1 bomber managed to penetrate the air defence screen, who will he bomb? a company of infantry when there's many more or 1 bridging unit when there's only a handful around. -
and ur point being?Originally posted by khaiseng:bridges are tempting strategic targets. destory it and u cut 1 lifeline of your aggressor
if 1 bomber managed to penetrate the air defence screen, who will he bomb? a company of infantry when there's many more or 1 bridging unit when there's only a handful around. -
erh bridge after bomb already can be rebuilt
esp with conquered enemy pow or civilian populations there plentiful supply of cheap labor that cost next to nothing. -
bridge can be rebuilt at the expense of time, something which can be a luxury during a battle of movement and counter-movement.
a destoryed mobile bridge is 1 less mobile bridge in our inventory, 1 less RCO capability, 1 less battle option. rivers and gaps that are previously passable then become an obstacle to movement of forces and follow up forces. tanks and APC can swim across the river but follow-on tonners and other units cannot. without them, there's a limit to how deep the armour can punch thru and how far the guards can heli-insert.
infantry can dive into their shellscrape, armour can sit tight in the tank during an arty bombardment but the bridge can only pray hard. at the end of it, it may just become a bridge over troubled waters. with MLRS in the AO, the threat to strategic units will be even greater.
at the end of the day, its not only about having the longest float bridge or dry bridge. its also about how they are deployed.
maybe not exactly the best book to read but try reading Tom Clancy's The Bear and the Dragon. one key stroke of attack is the destruction of the bridges, halt the flow of supplies and bring the armour fist to its knees. -
and it seems that we are deviating from the original thread..
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Field engineers, those in 30SCE build fixed bridges, more for supply lines, also prepare ground for initial assault as support unit for RCO. The key players in RCO are the Amphibious engineers, like those in 35SCE, they build floating bridges, rafts for the initial assault across rivers which the armour engineer cannot cope. Field engineer and amphibious engineer support all units in the division. The armour engineers are part of the armour unit, takes care of the armour unit only and they are supposed to be way ahead of Field engineer and amphibious engineers, in the front line.Originally posted by storywolf:Please stop mixing up field engineers or armour engineer bridges for river crossing. For those that we call rivers is what you mention in term of field and armour engineering bridges is too short for it . You think a river is 10-20m ? that a stream. A river is can be over 50 - 200m or even more.
Normally, armour engineers support armour units in assault river crossing under enemy fire. amphibious engineers support armour and infantry in assault river crossing under cover of darkness, even then the infantry guys should have landed on the far side to protect the far bank. Field engineers do not build fixed bridges under enemy fire.