sar-21LMG
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The brand new SAR-21 were probably firing semi, whereas the 10 years old Ultimax used for training were firing full-auto bursts.Originally posted by bismarck:being a saw gunner, i dun really like the weapon.
SAW atp detail, almost every detail got IA.
sar21, the entire 2day atp, at the most 5 IAs. -
Absolutely, but battle-proven by other people.Originally posted by LazerLordz:I have no knowledge of the SAR21 LMG, but I would keep the Ultimax as it is a battle-proven SAW.
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yes u are right. i mean if something IAs so frequently while serving it's intended purpose of a LMG, then it;s not effectiveOriginally posted by moca:The brand new SAR-21 were probably firing semi, whereas the 10 years old Ultimax used for training were firing full-auto bursts. -
There is no weapon that will not be affected by wear and tear, those are training weapons that are in used for many years.Originally posted by bismarck:yes u are right. i mean if something IAs so frequently while serving it's intended purpose of a LMG, then it;s not effective
Try a brand new one and see the difference.
In fact, IIRC M249 SAW had complaint abt reliability problem too in Iraq, the result of investigation was I believe wear and tear!!!
Anyway I posted in another forum quite sometime back where the info is from Philippines SR officers about the Ultimax in a Filipino military forum :
And here another from another PA soldier:
I had tried both the M249 and the Ultimax and saw for myself the distinction as a shooter and infantryman. The manufacturer (CIS) has corrected the defects of the Ultimax (falling drum-magazine, double feeding and other malfunctions) which made it an "unwanted" weapon in the 7th SRC when we were deployed in Maguindanao.
The advantages of the Ultimax include the following:
CIS has a local counterpart company (Floro Arms) which assist the repairs and parts replacement.
We wont be too dependent of the M855 SS109 linked ammo which the Arsenal is not capable of producing .
It out-performs the M249 (shot grouping capacity) out to 500m. It should be noted that the Singapore Shooting Team is the consistent champion in the LMG Category of the Australian Army Skill At Arms Meeting that we participated recently. I had seen how the NZ, Aus Army, US AMU and USMC Shooting Team of Quantico (all were using M249 except NZ team which used the M240B) were "routed" by the Singaporeans. We were using the brand new M249 from SEB, PA. Tigok rin kami sa LMG Category!
Perhaps, we can request from Singapore, our ASEAN neighbor, to design a 1:9 twist bull barrel for the Ultimax so that we can use either the SS109 and the M193 ball.
We immediately submitted our observations and recommendations to the CGPA himself when we arrived in December. I hope there will be positive action very soon.
The Army guys (especially the office boys) who are responsible for the procurement of our weapon systems must really rethink about their options. Ultimax or the Minimi? Nasubukan ko na yan... ang iba, nabola or nagpabola lang sa dealer. Hoooooooooah!Yup, totally agree with wat is written as above. The Ultimax is both cheaper and lighter. I have the privilege of firing before both the Ultimax100 and the Minimi before. The ultimax is light enough in terms of weight and recoil for a typical Asian soldier to fir in the standing shoulder postioin and the high kneel position. It is also good in Urban operations as u do not need to line the windows with sandbags to support the weapon when firing. In tactics wise, the Ultmiax gunner that is organic to the infantry section can take part in the "room capturing" role, instead of just being used as fire support. This is my personal experience. During one of the 300m range test, my company mate did a spectacular shoot being the highest hit rate among the LMG gunners. In fact, he overshot the marksman criteria by a lot. The secret is in the Ultimax100. He deliberately deprive the barrel of gas by setting the gas regulator to a low number at the same time ensuring it doesn't have stoppages. Thus he could shoot the rounds out one by one!! Coupled with the low recoil, he easily got the highest score
In conclusion, Ultimax is still the lightest and most controllable( i.e. most accurate) LMG in the world.
The SAR21 LMG, will it be as controllable and reliable as Utilmax???
I doubt so, so far HB rifle seldom perform well as a LMG. -
Yes, the gas regulator trick.
Single shot SAW. -
great discussion on the U100.. but there is not much discussion on the feeding system of a SAW.... the drum mag we have on the U100 cannot be loaded FULL without a special tool ! , and I have not been issued one in the service But so far, what I have heard is the drum is not very reliable and prone to jam in real word situation. Granted the Mk4 now takes the Beta Cmag! but from my buddies from Iraq and the recent report of the Beta... it did not perform very well in dirty and dusty conditions! the last thing you want is a jam drum!!!
As we have seen all SAW design recently and before have alternative feeding which is belt fed... look at the Isrealis, HK, etc etc...
HAve played with the M249 and defeintly the weight is much too much for us Asians. U100 felt so light from a SAW perspective and handling is defeinty very good except for those stupid Blanks SAF kept feeding us. the belt fed and the higher rate of fire from the Hks, M249 does comes in handy in a surpessrive fire type situation.
Hope to see Singapore SAW being use by the USMC.... but I wish they would have looked into the feeding system, heavier barrel ( 1:9 twist or 1:7 ) to shoot the M855 .
DaveC -
Ok so?Originally posted by davechng:the drum mag we have on the U100 cannot be loaded FULL without a special tool !
You can't reload the disintegrating belts used by most LMGs these days without tools either.
Anyone have a picture of the tool being used to load the drum magazines? I've never seen it before. -
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Yup, totally agree with wat is written as above. The Ultimax is both cheaper and lighter. I have the privilege of firing before both the Ultimax100 and the Minimi before. The ultimax is light enough in terms of weight and recoil for a typical Asian soldier to fir in the standing shoulder postioin and the high kneel position. It is also good in Urban operations as u do not need to line the windows with sandbags to support the weapon when firing. In tactics wise, the Ultmiax gunner that is organic to the infantry section can take part in the "room capturing" role, instead of just being used as fire support. This is my personal experience. During one of the 300m range test, my company mate did a spectacular shoot being the highest hit rate among the LMG gunners. In fact, he overshot the marksman criteria by a lot. The secret is in the Ultimax100. He deliberately deprive the barrel of gas by setting the gas regulator to a low number at the same time ensuring it doesn't have stoppages. Thus he could shoot the rounds out one by one!! Coupled with the low recoil, he easily got the highest score
Hi gary, that is not a Philippines soldier. That guy that posted the comment is actually me, I am from 3rd Guards, 2 yrs ago. Yes, the guy, which is my fren got marksman by finishing stage 'B' of the live firing. This is how accurate the Ultimax100 is...... -
LOL, I tot it was from a PA soldier becos it was posted in PDFF.Originally posted by equlus84:quote:
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Yup, totally agree with wat is written as above. The Ultimax is both cheaper and lighter. I have the privilege of firing before both the Ultimax100 and the Minimi before. The ultimax is light enough in terms of weight and recoil for a typical Asian soldier to fir in the standing shoulder postioin and the high kneel position. It is also good in Urban operations as u do not need to line the windows with sandbags to support the weapon when firing. In tactics wise, the Ultmiax gunner that is organic to the infantry section can take part in the "room capturing" role, instead of just being used as fire support. This is my personal experience. During one of the 300m range test, my company mate did a spectacular shoot being the highest hit rate among the LMG gunners. In fact, he overshot the marksman criteria by a lot. The secret is in the Ultimax100. He deliberately deprive the barrel of gas by setting the gas regulator to a low number at the same time ensuring it doesn't have stoppages. Thus he could shoot the rounds out one by one!! Coupled with the low recoil, he easily got the highest score
Hi gary, that is not a Philippines soldier. That guy that posted the comment is actually me, I am from 3rd Guards, 2 yrs ago. Yes, the guy, which is my fren got marksman by finishing stage 'B' of the live firing. This is how accurate the Ultimax100 is...... -
Okies, before we proceed further on the ultimax 100, let's clear up the versions first eh ...
I don't think I've ever seen or heard about the MK 1 during my service ....
I only know two versions, MK II, with fixed barrels and carrying handles angled 90 degs, and the MK III, with removable barrels, and curved carrying handles .....
MK I ? .... *scratches head ...
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YOu are right, belt fed needs machine too! but belt fed ammo is supplied in the belt! wherelse mag fed ammo somtims is not! YOu get resupplied somtimes in strippers or loose ammo cans!Originally posted by Raptor937:Ok so?
You can't reload the disintegrating belts used by most LMGs these days without tools either.
Anyone have a picture of the tool being used to load the drum magazines? I've never seen it before.
The point being, belt fed guns are not as prone to jamming as drums in harsh conditions! Even the aeastern bloc Drums on the RPK did not perform well! the beta C mag did not do well! cannot name one good drum feeding system that has work!
In my Days in SAF! we were never issue the drum except once in the 2ntm Standby.... has a chance to use it once! t work !but not enough to tell if it works good!
DaveC -
Mk1 was not issued out in large numbers. Used for export trials.Originally posted by Fatum:Okies, before we proceed further on the ultimax 100, let's clear up the versions first eh ...
I don't think I've ever seen or heard about the MK 1 during my service ....
I only know two versions, MK II, with fixed barrels and carrying handles angled 90 degs, and the MK III, with removable barrels, and curved carrying handles .....
MK I ? .... *scratches head ...
Mk3A is in service now.The buttstock clips differ from the Mk3. -
Haha... I have used the Mk-1 Ultimax before (old man). This was during a one day SAW familiarisation course at the range. And then later on during reservist BCT, sometimes get Mk-1.
Contrary to what is written here, the Mk-1 was standard issue to SAF. But most of them got worn out and replaced by the time you guys joined up.
The Ultimax, like I said, is not the most robustly-made weapon. In fact, those of you whom have handled one will probably know what I am talking about. It is like a stamped steel sheet receiver, charging handle that you have to push forward after co.cking or it will break, shaky buttstock etc...
It is the "sten gun" of SAW if you ask me... -
In my days, the blanks that are make in singapore have red marking and those imported are green .Originally posted by LazerLordz:Our ammo is partly to blame. Range ammo and training blanks will differ from actual wartime ammo, that's what I've heard from other military forums.
Try firing auto with the red ones even with M-16 auto, there is a high chance you get IA also. Later we also told of it by instructors. The green one from have enough enough power for saw even, and will not cause IA.
In the end, we alway save up all the green blanks for saw and issue only the red ones for M16 - well with that at least the saw gunners also get to play and shoot instead of just using their mouth to "bang bang" !!! -
I shot all types of rounds from a saw before. I alway get to shoot the saw the reason why was some stupid idiot rumours that because it is open bolt if you accidently drop it or what, it will accidently fire.Originally posted by bismarck:i am refering to live rounds ATP.
do u use a saw ?
Thus everyone so fighten of it that I am the only crazy nuts who don't mind to use it for all the live firing.
It is one of the most beautiful weapon to use, so little recoil that you don't believe that it is shooting real bullets. We try before putting out nose on the butt and shoot, it did not even recoil and touch the nose ! that is how good it is.
I only find that the sight system mounted did not do it justice, it should have better sight mounted for it to fully make use of it controlability and acurate shooting. How good it is , without even aiming, you use it to cut a target board in 1/2 ( yep basically saw the whole board into 2 with bullets).
Well it is light weight enough, the m203 with m16 is even heavier. Truly one of the best machine gun you can ever hope for.
Dave ask about the drum mag used - yep I got even a chance to shoot 4 x full loaded drums at one go. Can tell you they work beautifully. -
double post
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All the blanks I ever used are black colour and made of plastic. Is this red and green stuff new?Originally posted by storywolf:In my days, the blanks that are make in singapore have red marking and those imported are green . -
Hmm, thanks for the clarification.There are not many sources out there who have seen the Mk1 in service. That must have been in the early to mid 80s am I right?Originally posted by moca:Haha... I have used the Mk-1 Ultimax before (old man). This was during a one day SAW familiarisation course at the range. And then later on during reservist BCT, sometimes get Mk-1.
Contrary to what is written here, the Mk-1 was standard issue to SAF. But most of them got worn out and replaced by the time you guys joined up.
The Ultimax, like I said, is not the most robustly-made weapon. In fact, those of you whom have handled one will probably know what I am talking about. It is like a stamped steel sheet receiver, charging handle that you have to push forward after co.cking or it will break, shaky buttstock etc...
It is the "sten gun" of SAW if you ask me... -
The early eighties was when I served my NS. But even mid-nineties during reservist I still encountered the Mk-1 in BCT.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Hmm, thanks for the clarification.There are not many sources out there who have seen the Mk1 in service. That must have been in the early to mid 80s am I right?
Besides really banged up weapons we were also issued really dirty SBO and helmets and torn uniform for the 3 days of hell.
Heck I even encountered M-16 - non-A1 original version with no bolt-assist - made by Colt USA - during various times of service. And they had the Vietnam-war-type 3-prong muzzle.
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Those US made Colt AR-15s are real antique, more than 10 years old by 1980 becos I believe those like the first batch b4 we licensed produced them. Handle it in the late 70s.Originally posted by moca:The early eighties was when I served my NS. But even mid-nineties during reservist I still encountered the Mk-1 in BCT.
Besides really banged up weapons we were also issued really dirty SBO and helmets and torn uniform for the 3 days of hell.
Heck I even encountered M-16 - non-A1 original version with no bolt-assist - made by Colt USA - during various times of service. And they had the Vietnam-war-type 3-prong muzzle.
As for Mk1 SAW, fired it during my BMT in the 80s, not sure any MkII at all at that time.
As in the 90s, only MK1 and 2 version , no Mk3 at all. -
My unit had the Mk3s in the early 90s'. The earlier versions were found when training overseas.
In the mid 80s' - I've seen a heavy barrel M16 that was used before the Ultimax SAW. Anyone seen that? -
I use the AR-15. It even says Colt Armament, Hartford CN.
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i do however, agree that the recoil is damn low. probably lower than a sar21Originally posted by storywolf:I shot all types of rounds from a saw before. I alway get to shoot the saw the reason why was some stupid idiot rumours that because it is open bolt if you accidently drop it or what, it will accidently fire.
Thus everyone so fighten of it that I am the only crazy nuts who don't mind to use it for all the live firing.
It is one of the most beautiful weapon to use, so little recoil that you don't believe that it is shooting real bullets. We try before putting out nose on the butt and shoot, it did not even recoil and touch the nose ! that is how good it is.
I only find that the sight system mounted did not do it justice, it should have better sight mounted for it to fully make use of it controlability and acurate shooting. How good it is , without even aiming, you use it to cut a target board in 1/2 ( yep basically saw the whole board into 2 with bullets).
Well it is light weight enough, the m203 with m16 is even heavier. Truly one of the best machine gun you can ever hope for.
Dave ask about the drum mag used - yep I got even a chance to shoot 4 x full loaded drums at one go. Can tell you they work beautifully. -
Ultimax is good but cud be made better.
1. Toughen it up :- in its current form it is flimsy ; dont think it can stand up to real combat & prolonged use in a combat zone ; better a little heavier than
not being able to use it due to its fragility
2. Ammo feed system is its Archilles heel ; - probablty a belt fed or box fed system such as one used in M249 better. Also , ammo feed shud include use of rifle mags. In a combat zone, one may have no other source of ammo other than from a rifle mag. 30 rounds better than none !
3. Use a 4 X red dot sight to fully exploit its accuracy and range
With the above, I will not want to be at the business end of an Ultimax at 800 m range. At 300 m it is fatal. -
The rest are probably valid, but not this one. The loading system could be improved but certainly not to a belt/box fed system, which has more then its own fair share of problems with fouling and links getting twisted. In fact it is the ability to feed from normal mags that is one of the plus points of the Ultimax.Originally posted by glock:2. Ammo feed system is its Archilles heel ; - probablty a belt fed or box fed system such as one used in M249 better. Also , ammo feed shud include use of rifle mags. In a combat zone, one may have no other source of ammo other than from a rifle mag. 30 rounds better than none !