sar-21LMG
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Hi,
Found some reference to the SAR-21LMG while surfing on wikipedia. I am unsure if the topic has been raised before, but was just wondering if anyone knows anything about this weapon?
(msg edited so I dun get in trouble with OSA) :-) -
Thanks for the pic.
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They look like mattel toys...
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You can take pics inside the armskote?
OMG -
I sense a security breach somewhere down the line.
Even though wikipedia's in the public domain, it looks like a private photo taken in an armskote using a camera phone, not an official MINDEF release.
Oh wait - that's TWO security breaches. -
I think Fudgester has brought up a pertinent point. I am removing the pic from my previous post in any case.
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According to the Wiki, SAR21 was sold to Bangladesh!?!
Dunno cho boh
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SAR 21 is being offered for export military and law enforcement sales by ST Kinetic.Originally posted by gary1910:According to the Wiki, SAR21 was sold to Bangladesh!?!
Dunno cho boh -
The pics do not look like SAF armskotes.
anyway, here's a pic of the carbine version.
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Singapore should never give up the ultimax100 SAW. They should upgrade it by adding plastic to the metal parts and solve the mag droping issue. The USMC is starting to realise the "good" of the Ultimax100. It would be a mistake to take a bullpup HBR LMG.
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Yes i agree with equlus84, the Ultimax100 is too good to be totally abandoned for an untried new LMG. Maybe we can have some SAR21 LMG to test in the experimental battalion first before coming to a conclusion. But personally i think Ultimax100 Mk 4 will be a much better choice.
I think no OSA is breached here because a drawing of the SAR21 LMG have been released in the paqers before a few years back. But to be on the safe side, no picture is still better.
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Not the LMG itself, but the fact the picture was taken in an armskote, complete with the wooden rack and the rope they used to tie the weapons together
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looks like somewhere I've seen before, in my line during NS.Originally posted by laurence82:Not the LMG itself, but the fact the picture was taken in an armskote, complete with the wooden rack and the rope they used to tie the weapons together
but yeah, that's not the way la. -
The SAR21 LMG itself was describe before when the SAR21 family was first launched. There used to be an official website a few years ago as well.
But the photos on wiki are not authorised as others have pointed out. Those are unauthorised photos of prototypes/development/testing rifles. There is no official word of a SAR21 LMG model being adopted for the SAF, even though there is developement and testing.
There's even a weblink to the SAR21 prototype -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Combat_Rifle_%28Singapore%29 -
It'll be a great mistake to replace the Ultimax 100 as our standard SAW. The Ultimax is already a very good weapon in itself. It's not much of a stretch to say that foreign weapons experts practically worship our weapon.
Heck, the US Army is thinking of getting the newest Mk IV as their standard LMG. Lazer, do you remember which thread I'm talking about? Ok if you could post a link to that thread?
As any SAR 21 user knows, reloading a bullpup is a major pain in the ass. If you're going to fire at full auto, then you'll find yourself cursing and swearing at having to change the magazine every twenty seconds. Even if they come out with a 100-round drum mag for the SAR-21 LMG, I can imagine that reloading is still gonna be a major hassle.
I say just adopt the Ultimax 100 Mk IV version and forget about the SAR 21 LMG. I see no point in trying to change a good thing. -
Wasn't there a heavy barrel hi-cap version of the sar-21 on st-kinetics brochures?? I assumed that was the LMG in question.... i didn get to see his pics b4 he removed it.
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Me like using the Ultimax in my NS days, can really hold as a suppressing fire support weapon and my section actually tried on verifying one of the rumours that Ultimax's recoil is the best in its class and even when resting on nose on the butt of Ultimax, you won't break your nose by the recoil force when firing on 3-rounds burst rate...
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being a saw gunner, i dun really like the weapon.
SAW atp detail, almost every detail got IA.
sar21, the entire 2day atp, at the most 5 IAs. -
You don't like it is because you don't understand your SAW enough.Originally posted by bismarck:being a saw gunner, i dun really like the weapon.
SAW atp detail, almost every detail got IA.
sar21, the entire 2day atp, at the most 5 IAs.
The reason for it to IA is not the weapon fault at all. It is a good and beauty weapon.
The reason for the misconception of IA is during exercise - you all are issue with the blanks that don't have enough power to push back the bolt fully thus resulting in IA - if real bullets that is not a issue.
Just because of these, it lead to a lot of people mistaking thinking that SAW is not good and IA alway. It is the blanks that is underpowered leading to the problem. -
Agreed!Originally posted by storywolf:You don't like it is because you don't understand your SAW enough.
The reason for it to IA is not the weapon fault at all. It is a good and beauty weapon.
The reason for the misconception of IA is during exercise - you all are issue with the blanks that don't have enough power to push back the bolt fully thus resulting in IA - if real bullets that is not a issue.
Just because of these, it lead to a lot of people mistaking thinking that SAW is not good and IA alway. It is the blanks that is underpowered leading to the problem.
Blanks suck with Ultimax but with live 5.56 rounds, it's a true baby of power... -
Gladly.Originally posted by fudgester:It'll be a great mistake to replace the Ultimax 100 as our standard SAW. The Ultimax is already a very good weapon in itself. It's not much of a stretch to say that foreign weapons experts practically worship our weapon.
Heck, the US Army is thinking of getting the newest Mk IV as their standard LMG. Lazer, do you remember which thread I'm talking about? Ok if you could post a link to that thread?
As any SAR 21 user knows, reloading a bullpup is a major pain in the ass. If you're going to fire at full auto, then you'll find yourself cursing and swearing at having to change the magazine every twenty seconds. Even if they come out with a 100-round drum mag for the SAR-21 LMG, I can imagine that reloading is still gonna be a major hassle.
I say just adopt the Ultimax 100 Mk IV version and forget about the SAR 21 LMG. I see no point in trying to change a good thing.
Just a correction, it was the USMC who is looking for a SAW replacement. Their RFI(request for information) was shown to be best met by the Ultimax Mk4.
Here is a link
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=853
and what I posted in April about the Ultimax being one of the four Infantry Automatic Rifles in the running, which include the M16A4 HB, H&K G36 HB, the current M249 Minimi.
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=185677&page=0
Just an interesting piece of trivia for Ultimax SAW opponents. The Ultimax 100 Mk1 was in the running for the USMC's SAW program in 1986, which the FN Minimi won and became known as the M249.
I personally have no gripe with the Ultimax, as it's main engineering flaws have been fixed IMHO in the Mk3A and Mk4.Agreeably, the Mk1 and Mk2 models which were the mainstay for many SAF soldiers were quite flawed in their metallurgy and had no interchangeable barrel.This might have caused the poor impression many have of the Ultimax.
I have no knowledge of the SAR21 LMG, but I would keep the Ultimax as it is a battle-proven SAW. -
Our ammo is partly to blame. Range ammo and training blanks will differ from actual wartime ammo, that's what I've heard from other military forums.Originally posted by storywolf:You don't like it is because you don't understand your SAW enough.
The reason for it to IA is not the weapon fault at all. It is a good and beauty weapon.
The reason for the misconception of IA is during exercise - you all are issue with the blanks that don't have enough power to push back the bolt fully thus resulting in IA - if real bullets that is not a issue.
Just because of these, it lead to a lot of people mistaking thinking that SAW is not good and IA alway. It is the blanks that is underpowered leading to the problem. -
It's the same lah...Originally posted by LazerLordz:Our ammo is partly to blame. Range ammo and training blanks will differ from actual wartime ammo, that's what I've heard from other military forums. -
Probably the same.Originally posted by dork3d:It's the same lah... -
i am refering to live rounds ATP.Originally posted by storywolf:You don't like it is because you don't understand your SAW enough.
The reason for it to IA is not the weapon fault at all. It is a good and beauty weapon.
The reason for the misconception of IA is during exercise - you all are issue with the blanks that don't have enough power to push back the bolt fully thus resulting in IA - if real bullets that is not a issue.
Just because of these, it lead to a lot of people mistaking thinking that SAW is not good and IA alway. It is the blanks that is underpowered leading to the problem.
do u use a saw ?