BBC Documentary - How Vietnam Was Lost
-
In one weekend in 1967, two occurrences at opposite ends of the world began the process whereby Americans convinced themselves that the Vietnam War was not worth fighting.
One of these was the ambush of an American battalion by the Vietcong, resulting in 61 casualties. The other was at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, where state police ejected students who were campaigning against the presence presence on campus of recruiting agents for napalm manufacturers Dow Chemical.
I just finished watching this BBC documentary. Very intense, almost emotional documentary.
Survivors of the ambush talked about that day, about how they were ambushed, about how their Bat. Cmdr tactically screwed up, how he'd never led a command section on the ground b4 (he previously did it from a Bell Sioux Helo). Lt Welch CO of Delta company, gives a particularly insightful and emotional account of the day, especially when he talks about how he woke up on the operating table after the battle (having been shot in the chest, right leg and both arms) and asking the doctor "what happend to his delta" and being told delta is gone(at this point he breaks down a bit in the interview)
As for the Wisconsin Uni demonstration, the police waded in and started beating peaceful students. And that in effect politicized students who previously had no stand either way about the war in vietnam. People interviewed included professors and assistant deans and students who were both involved or uninvolved with the demonstration, who recall with fury how the police, how the authorities betrayed the very values of democracy and free speech by taking action against anyone who opposed their position.
Very profound especially, is the way the war vets talk about how "nobody gives their lives up for their countries. Their lives get torn away from them by their countries" and how "it was a high price to pay for a needless cause".
The documentary also talks about the cover-up or positive spin the American media put on both events, by claiming there was a planned battle instead of an ambush, and by claiming the students were vicious and outnumbered police, forcing police to "fight for their lives"
I think Singaporeans can learn something about what true democracy is, what false fallacies democracy can turn into, and the price we can end up paying for lost causes.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/storyville/vietnam.shtml -
What happens when you love your country but you oppose to the policies of your government?
Do you automatically become a traitor because you're not doing what they want you to do?
IF the government betrays the people and the nation for their own good, for a lost cause, at what point should the people wake up and realise who the real traitors are? -
stand for election and brings forward your argument... otherwise.. shut up and follow...Originally posted by HENG@:What happens when you love your country but you oppose to the policies of your government?
Do you automatically become a traitor because you're not doing what they want you to do?
IF the government betrays the people and the nation for their own good, for a lost cause, at what point should the people wake up and realise who the real traitors are?
dont snipe your fellow citizen just because of differences of opinion...
in a democracy... the majority rules... not happy.. you can choose to migrate or shoot your own foot... and get out of the frontline. -
alternatively.. you could choose to stay and sit out the situation but continue to contribute to the nation by serving in areas which you think would help the country without hurting other fellow citizen.
there is no perfect answers...
if america have won.. and vietnam becomes a second japan... it might be worth bleeding for...
but america lost... so its a lost cause...
interpretation of the past through the lens of the present is wrongful and does not do justice to the those who have to make the tough decision there and then on the spot.
leaders are not god... they just do what they believe is correct for the nation.. at that point of time...
but we are only human... and god has every intentions to let us realise our short comings... -
we've seen that happen. Does it really work? Do people dare to vote for what's right, or do they only dare vote for what they're comfortable and used to, instead of leaving their comfort zone.Originally posted by tripwire:stand for election and brings forward your argument... otherwise.. shut up and follow...
dont snipe your fellow citizen just because of differences of opinion...
in a democracy... the majority rules... not happy.. you can choose to migrate or shoot your own foot... and get out of the frontline.
Meanwhile its a selfish and unthinking citizen who would even suggest that the majority is by default right and that the minority should shut up and follow. That is a more apt description of mass brainwashing and intimidation.
Like I said, maybe its a matter how patriotic you really are, to see that not everyone who opposes the majority dislikes their country. Maybe u have to ask yourself, at what point does blind patriotism cross the line into betryal of the ideals of democracy your nation was founded on. -
if you have no faith in the people... no point lamenting here...Originally posted by HENG@:we've seen that happen. Does it really work? Do people dare to vote for what's right, or do they only dare vote for what they're comfortable and used to, instead of leaving their comfort zone.
Meanwhile its a selfish and unthinking citizen who would even suggest that the majority is by default right and that the minority should shut up and follow. That is a more apt description of mass brainwashing and intimidation.
Like I said, maybe its a matter how patriotic you really are, to see that not everyone who opposes the majority dislikes their country. Maybe u have to ask yourself, at what point does blind patriotism cross the line into betryal of the ideals of democracy your nation was founded on.
the key is that you must convince the people to believe you, that takes time.. especially when you are up against a govt with impeccable record. -
Openly recognizing past mistakes and corrective actions over time will make America stronger.
The system is not perfect but you get a chance to work on it.
More education means less rights abuse.
Singaporeans are not protected by a Bill of Rights ... ... -
openly recognizing past mistakes is but a means to close the ranks of the people and reforge national unity.. it does not change the past nor can it prevent similar future mistake...Originally posted by Dogtor:Openly recognizing past mistakes and corrective actions over time will make America stronger.
The system is not perfect but you get a chance to work on it.
More education means less rights abuse.
Singaporeans are not protected by a Bill of Rights ... ...
singaporeans are protected by our constituition.. similar to the americans bill of rights... you can read it yourself.
http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/non_version/cgi-bin/cgi_retrieve.pl?&actno=Reved-CONST&date=latest&method=part -
Originally posted by tripwire:
Thank you for highlightling the ideals in the constitution that are subsequently clearly qualified by restrictions.
openly recognizing past mistakes is but a means to close the ranks of the people and reforge national unity.. it does not change the past nor can it prevent similar future mistake...
singaporeans are protected by our constituition.. similar to the americans bill of rights... you can read it yourself.
http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/non_version/cgi-bin/cgi_retrieve.pl?&actno=Reved-CONST&date=latest&method=part -
clearly an ironyOriginally posted by Dogtor:Thank you for highlightling the ideals in the constitution that are subsequently clearly qualified by restrictions. -
nobody is lamenting. Just just because you're not listening or you don't see or understand doesn't mean others aren't. The world is not you and you alone. Thats the point of a democracy. People should be able to lobby for changes even if they're not within the political system. If you need to join the party to make changes, why not just have a communist system instead? Same thing, u can't make changes if you're not "in the party"Originally posted by tripwire:if you have no faith in the people... no point lamenting here...
the key is that you must convince the people to believe you, that takes time.. especially when you are up against a govt with impeccable record.
Impeccable? ha ha ha. Sorry I didn't know that willful blindness is a prerequisite of patriotism. -
which is unfortunately, not something the willfully blind can see. Luckily I see that there are people who do see, and that there seems to be hope yet.Originally posted by beavan:clearly an irony -
ideals are not complete without restrictions... restrictions is what allow ideals to become reality and exist in the real world of evil man.Originally posted by Dogtor:Thank you for highlightling the ideals in the constitution that are subsequently clearly qualified by restrictions.
without restrictions . idealistic ideals would implode upon itself and collapse over time. -
like the ying and the yang... one cannot exist without the other.. yet both continuosly opposes each other...Originally posted by beavan:clearly an irony
without hell... who needs GODs?
without restrictions... what is freedom? -
no excuse to disguise actions of personal gain for a few individuals under the pretense of "survival restrictions"Originally posted by tripwire:ideals are not complete without restrictions... restrictions is what allow ideals to become reality and exist in the real world of evil man.
without restrictions . idealistic ideals would implode upon itself and collapse over time.
and if u betray your ideals to begin with, might as well drop the pretense and stop the hypocrisy. -
oh i get it. without a class of oppressed, where do u get the lucky select elite right?Originally posted by tripwire:like the ying and the yang... one cannot exist without the other.. yet both continuosly opposes each other...
without hell... who needs GODs?
without restrictions... what is freedom?
thanks for making it clear to us
-
you... who laments about the lack of democracy of singapore and the voice of the minority..Originally posted by HENG@:nobody is lamenting. Just just because you're not listening or you don't see or understand doesn't mean others aren't. The world is not you and you alone. Thats the point of a democracy. People should be able to lobby for changes even if they're not within the political system. If you need to join the party to make changes, why not just have a communist system instead? Same thing, u can't make changes if you're not "in the party"
Impeccable? ha ha ha. Sorry I didn't know that willful blindness is a prerequisite of patriotism.
now seeks to crush my opinion because i do not agreed with you.. where then is your moral standard on democracy?
does democracy only exist in singapore when.....
only your point valid... ?
only your idea is acceptable...?
others who disagreed with you, are mere wilfull blind patriots...?
you sound more like a dictator then one who champions democracy...
will you place restriction on my opinion to think differently from you?
welcome to the real world..... -
me? crush your opinion? i didn't ask u to "shut up" like u asked me to. i let u air your views, even if i think you're being socially irresponsible.Originally posted by tripwire:you... who laments about the lack of democracy of singapore and the voice of the minority..
now seeks to crush my opinion because i do not agreed with you.. where then is your moral standard on democracy?
does democracy only exist in singapore when.....
only your point valid... ?
only your idea is acceptable...?
others who disagreed with you, are mere wilfull blind patriots...?
you sound more like a dictator then one who champions democracy...
will you place restriction on my opinion to think differently from you?
welcome to the real world.....
I didn't accuse you of sniping.
I didn't seem to suggest your impotence in national affairs by calling it "lamenting"
I find it funny that you seem to think im crushing your opinion. would u like me to REALLY start crushing your opinion? Its not a hard thing to do, im only restraining myself as much as I do because its democracy we're discussing.
And if you claim your right to your opinion, don't I get to claim my right to my opinion of your willful blind patriotism? Its a viscious circle isn't it? You don't want the vicious circle to come to you? Don't use it then.
The real world is not your small well in Sg. Welcome to the real world? That'll come when u leave your well.
Anyways, even if i do sound like a dictator, its still a step up than sounding like some government's lap dog. I don't bark for scraps, no sireee. -
ideals needs to be tempered with a dose of reality... ideals alone aint gonna move the economy nor keep you feed and safe....Originally posted by HENG@:no excuse to disguise actions of personal gain for a few individuals under the pretense of "survival restrictions"
and if u betray your ideals to begin with, might as well drop the pretense and stop the hypocrisy.
find me a land on this world... where ideals exist purely without restriction...
find me a land on this world.. where there are no inequality and absolute freedom.
bet you cant... -
news for you. in sg, any "economy movement" is a byproduct of them making sure they get their personal gains. And in the process of you getting that "economy movement" which isn't that great anyway, you have all sorts of rights trampled into the ground and a puppet democracy. Whats the point?Originally posted by tripwire:ideals needs to be tempered with a dose of reality... ideals alone aint gonna move the economy nor keep you feed and safe....
find me a land on this world... where ideals exist purely without restriction...
find me a land on this world.. where there are no inequality and absolute freedom.
bet you cant...
U're saying we should accept the flawed. I'm saying no matter where we are, we should not, because by not accepting something flawed, changes, improvements happen. You familiar with the chinese phrase "bu qiu shang jing"? the term complacency sounds familiar? to be content because there is no land where ideals exist purely without restriction where there are no inequality and absolute freedom, is to doom yourself to social regression. -
i wont call it oppressed.. but everyone has a right to their own opinion of what is "oppressed".Originally posted by HENG@:oh i get it. without a class of oppressed, where do u get the lucky select elite right?
thanks for making it clear to us
but reality sucks...
if there is only one chair.. and two people... someone have to give up that seat...
just as there can only be one president... or is there a country where everyone is a president?
so.. ideals have to be tempered... else ideals becomes nonsense... -
so how do we temper that ideal? by rejecting every application for presidency except for your own party's candidate?Originally posted by tripwire:i wont call it oppressed.. but everyone has a right to their own opinion of what is "oppressed".
but reality sucks...
if there is only one chair.. and two people... someone have to give up that seat...
just as there can only be one president... or is there a country where everyone is a president?
so.. ideals have to be tempered... else ideals becomes nonsense...
ha ha ha. tell me another good one -
did i specifically pointed out that you are sniping fellow singaporeans?Originally posted by HENG@:me? crush your opinion? i didn't ask u to "shut up" like u asked me to. i let u air your views, even if i think you're being socially irresponsible.
I didn't accuse you of sniping.
I didn't seem to suggest your impotence in national affairs by calling it "lamenting"
I find it funny that you seem to think im crushing your opinion. would u like me to REALLY start crushing your opinion? Its not a hard thing to do, im only restraining myself as much as I do because its democracy we're discussing.
And if you claim your right to your opinion, don't I get to claim my right to my opinion of your willful blind patriotism? Its a viscious circle isn't it? You don't want the vicious circle to come to you? Don't use it then.
The real world is not your small well in Sg. Welcome to the real world? That'll come when u leave your well.
Anyways, even if i do sound like a dictator, its still a step up than sounding like some government's lap dog. I don't bark for scraps, no sireee.
lamenting?? just who is the ones yakking around "we've seen that happen. Does it really work? Do people dare to vote for what's right, or do they only dare vote for what they're comfortable and used to, instead of leaving their comfort zone. "
obviously.. you dont think very high of singaporeans.. if so... no point "l-a-m-e-n-t-i-n-g".
and show me the "REAL" world... even the sky seen from beneath the well.. is still "REAL" sky... just for your information... -
why dont you name me a land where everyone is a president... before you continue your endless mumbling... about ideals...Originally posted by HENG@:so how do we temper that ideal? by rejecting every application for presidency except for your own party's candidate?
ha ha ha. tell me another good one -
news for you too....Originally posted by HENG@:news for you. in sg, any "economy movement" is a byproduct of them making sure they get their personal gains. And in the process of you getting that "economy movement" which isn't that great anyway, you have all sorts of rights trampled into the ground and a puppet democracy. Whats the point?
U're saying we should accept the flawed. I'm saying no matter where we are, we should not, because by not accepting something flawed, changes, improvements happen. You familiar with the chinese phrase "bu qiu shang jing"? the term complacency sounds familiar? to be content because there is no land where ideals exist purely without restriction where there are no inequality and absolute freedom, is to doom yourself to social regression.
there isnt a land on this world... where ideals exist purely without restriction...
nor is there a land on this world.. where there are no inequality and absolute freedom.
our system aint perfect... because we are not perfect...
imperfection is part of this world...
while we can continue to seek perfections... please understand that for every action.. there are other effects other then the intended effects.
perfection can be seek... but cannot be gain... we are doomed to live in such a world...
it is up to you to decide how you want to live your live... through your freedom of choice out of countless other alternatives... or... even lamenting here.. is also a choice of your free will...