Lousiest Fighter in WWII?
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I heard this fighter is famous for its bad reputation sd s "Flying Coffin" in the USMC. It is used by RAF and RAAF to defend Singapore and Australia. However the it is popular and successful with the Finnish pilots when send against Soviet fighters -
one man's meat is another man's poison
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In combat performance, the Buffalo was no poorer than the early F4F Wildcats that held the fort in late 1941/early 1942 against the Japanese. It was poor manufacturing QC, underpowered engine, but more importantly poor pilot training and wrong tactics that caused it to suffer in combat. If a late-war Hellcat tried to engage a Zero in a turning fight the results would more or less be the same.
Its weak undercarriage also caused many accidents.
I recommend the book Buffalos over Singapore to correct many misconceptions about this aircraft -
good book.... what I read is that the British Version of the BUffalo is also plaque with bad gun design! the .50 caliber machine gunthat came with the aircraft jams all the time and a lot of them were replace with 303 caliber browning.. but agin! logistics limit the bronwings being mounted .
The US NAvy versionn perform better than the British version also becasue the Brits put to much armour oonthe aircraft and makes its too heavy !!
Had a previlage to talk to Tex Hill of the AVG couple of years back he was stating they flew together with teh British pilots who fle buffaloes and get to fly it a few times personnaly he hatered it! As much as he did not like te early P40B... he wouldm fly the P40 anyday to the Buffaloes
DaveC -
Hi Dave, believe that another book I've read blamed the frequent RAF Buffalo gun jams on the tropical weather which corroded the wiring systems in the guns. Anyway the Brits tried to lighten the Buffalo by tossing a pair of guns, the radio, and changing the 50-cals to .303s. The USN F2A-1/2s were fine weight-wise, its the British 339s and the USMC F2A-3s (as used over Midway) which were too heavy.Originally posted by davechng:good book.... what I read is that the British Version of the BUffalo is also plaque with bad gun design! the .50 caliber machine gunthat came with the aircraft jams all the time and a lot of them were replace with 303 caliber browning.. but agin! logistics limit the bronwings being mounted .
The US NAvy versionn perform better than the British version also becasue the Brits put to much armour oonthe aircraft and makes its too heavy !!
Had a previlage to talk to Tex Hill of the AVG couple of years back he was stating they flew together with teh British pilots who fle buffaloes and get to fly it a few times personnaly he hatered it! As much as he did not like te early P40B... he wouldm fly the P40 anyday to the Buffaloes
DaveC
Still the main causes of the debacle over Singapore were still poor pilot training, wrong tactics and lack of early warning of Japanese raids (which was made worse by the Buffalo's poor climb rate) -
Hi Viper 52
U are right... the brits tried to toss those .50 and go with the 30 cal ... I guess even with that fighting against the Ki43 and Nates .. the buffalo is still no match ! not to forget we have bunch of Hurricanes in Kallang! didn't do much to change the situation.
Tex Hill and Joe Foss that I met has talk about never to turn with teh Japanese A6m2 and the KI43 .. they will eat lunch with any of the Allied fighters. ONly the late Ki84 or A6m5 that the Japanese went for speed, armor protection and firepower..
DAveC -
i think the buffalo has an unfair rep, esp amongst singaporeans because those were the planes stationed in sg.
from wikipedia:
The Brewster Buffalo, or Brewster F2A, was the first monoplane fighter aircraft used by the United States Navy. It also served in other air forces around the world and — in spite of an undeserved reputation for poor performance — was relatively successful in air combat. -
AVG?!?!?!Originally posted by davechng:good book.... what I read is that the British Version of the BUffalo is also plaque with bad gun design! the .50 caliber machine gunthat came with the aircraft jams all the time and a lot of them were replace with 303 caliber browning.. but agin! logistics limit the bronwings being mounted .
The US NAvy versionn perform better than the British version also becasue the Brits put to much armour oonthe aircraft and makes its too heavy !!
Had a previlage to talk to Tex Hill of the AVG couple of years back he was stating they flew together with teh British pilots who fle buffaloes and get to fly it a few times personnaly he hatered it! As much as he did not like te early P40B... he wouldm fly the P40 anyday to the Buffaloes
DaveC
the famed Fei Hu Dui? Flying Tigers? The group which served in China? -
Yes Heng
The famous Fei Hu Tui! I also built plastic models and collect historical militaria stuff.... we always get to meet these fighter ace... was fortunate to have met famous guys like Adolf Galland before he passed away.. Joe Foss ( Wildcat ) ace that fight in Guadalcanal is still here in Texas, so is Tex Hill! FOrmer Memphis Belle B17 pilot come to Dallas once a while !but I guess he looks so old a few years back.
Texas house lots of fully restored and flying WW2 war birds... we have the Commemorative Airforce in Midland TX, Dallas we have the Cavanaugh musuem with lots of flying birds like the HUrricane, F-4U, TBM Advenger, B25J, SPitfire, F-86F, etc..in Graham. we have the only flying Sb2C Helldiver. In Houston the Lonestar flight musuem! so! meeting these old aces is easy in TExas!
DaveC -
Well! as much as the British crew it up with the Buffalo, the Finnish airforce took the Buffaloe real well against the Russian!
Again! the early war Japanese Army and NAvy pilot have excellent tactics and machines!
I guess tactics is could have change the course of the airwar in SIngapore and Malaya in 1942.
DaveC -
OMFG ARE U SERIOUS U MET ADOLF GALLAND!!!Originally posted by davechng:Yes Heng
The famous Fei Hu Tui! I also built plastic models and collect historical militaria stuff.... we always get to meet these fighter ace... was fortunate to have met famous guys like Adolf Galland before he passed away.. Joe Foss ( Wildcat ) ace that fight in Guadalcanal is still here in Texas, so is Tex Hill! FOrmer Memphis Belle B17 pilot come to Dallas once a while !but I guess he looks so old a few years back.
Texas house lots of fully restored and flying WW2 war birds... we have the Commemorative Airforce in Midland TX, Dallas we have the Cavanaugh musuem with lots of flying birds like the HUrricane, F-4U, TBM Advenger, B25J, SPitfire, F-86F, etc..in Graham. we have the only flying Sb2C Helldiver. In Houston the Lonestar flight musuem! so! meeting these old aces is easy in TExas!
DaveC
i would give an arm to meet him, my younger brother would give both arms n legs!!!
oh i would have liked to meet Memphis Belle's pilot too. And I'd have liked to meet Germany's Blond Knight. Erich Hartmann. And maybe some brit pilots who took part in the Battle of Britain. And anyone from the dambuster squad. And Maj Doolittle!!!
One person I would probably have liked to meet would be Michael Wittmann. But he died during WW2.
I have spoken to a Brit vet who was in that armoured column that fateful day, where SS-Hauptsturmführer Wittmann took on an entire armoured column almost single handedly, and brought the advance of 7th Armoured Division to a halt. -
tactics were everything. development of solid naval air tactics was essential. the sinking of the PoW and Repulse showed how much tactics could change the future of warfare, and how tactics could render huge weapons like battleships obselete.Originally posted by davechng:Well! as much as the British crew it up with the Buffalo, the Finnish airforce took the Buffaloe real well against the Russian!
Again! the early war Japanese Army and NAvy pilot have excellent tactics and machines!
I guess tactics is could have change the course of the airwar in SIngapore and Malaya in 1942.
DaveC -
I have read about the Finnish using the Buffalo against the Soviet invasion.
First of all, I think their Buffalos were modified. Secondly, this was quite early in the war and the Soviet pilots weren't as well-trained, though some models of their Yak fighters were much faster and agile. -
Defiant is another crap
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TOo BAd the Blond knight ( Eric Hartmann) died before we get to shake his hand! SO is Pappy Boyington... so sad! Oh well!
But anyhow... Usually in the US we have either the model IPMS show or Militaria surplus show where these pilots, veterans would come!If you are in this neighbourhood ... there is a good chance to meet them..
DAveC -
wonder if they have such events in the UK...Originally posted by davechng:TOo BAd the Blond knight ( Eric Hartmann) died before we get to shake his hand! SO is Pappy Boyington... so sad! Oh well!
But anyhow... Usually in the US we have either the model IPMS show or Militaria surplus show where these pilots, veterans would come!If you are in this neighbourhood ... there is a good chance to meet them..
DAveC -
UK should have more of these events! Are U in the UK??
Checkout Duxford and all these places ! they usually have special events that will invite these veterans!
DaveC -
yea im in UK. i've long entertained the idea of visiting Normandy to pay respects to the Allied war dead of D-Day n subsequent action, as well as Michael Wittmann
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http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/
"It all started in 24 Fighter Squadron during '42 or '43 if I remember correctly. Someone suggested that one of the squadron pilots go to Kauhava (Air Force Academy) to lecture on tactics, 'how to wage war with Brewsters'. That was because the Americans also started waging war and they had no clue how to go about it. There in the Pacific when they started fighting it was completely pitiful. They had three engagements where Brewsters were used. And in the last one they had 17 Brewsters in one aerial engagement, and if I remember correctly, 13 were shot down. After that all the Brewsters were sent to Florida for their Air Force cadets.
The Finnish pilot Captain Hans Henrik "Hasse" Wind 30.7.1919-24.7.1995 had 75 aerial victories, double recipient of the Mannerheim Cross (the highest military award in Finland) (39 kills in the Brewster)
And all of this was the result of them attacking Zeros. They didn't consider at all that the Zero had no armour, was made of wood and was much lighter. But it had an engine of the same size. And they (Americans) started turn-fighting them (Zeros). So, the Brewsters were shot down. They just should have used rocking-chair (vertical) tactics, attack and pull out.
http://www.saunalahti.fi/fta/finace02.htm
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Hi DaveC,Originally posted by davechng:Hi Viper 52
U are right... the brits tried to toss those .50 and go with the 30 cal ... I guess even with that fighting against the Ki43 and Nates .. the buffalo is still no match ! not to forget we have bunch of Hurricanes in Kallang! didn't do much to change the situation.
Tex Hill and Joe Foss that I met has talk about never to turn with teh Japanese A6m2 and the KI43 .. they will eat lunch with any of the Allied fighters. ONly the late Ki84 or A6m5 that the Japanese went for speed, armor protection and firepower..
DAveC
Even with the twin 0.303s, the consensus among Commonwealth pilots was that it was sufficient firepower to down the Ki-27s, Ki-43s and Zeros that they encountered over Singapore. It was just not often enough that the guns were brought to bear! -
Hi moca, not really modified, but the Finns were using a version of the Buffalo (equivalent to the F2A-2 IIRC) that was not underpowered or overweight, and along with better tactics, meant they scored greater success.Originally posted by moca:I have read about the Finnish using the Buffalo against the Soviet invasion.
First of all, I think their Buffalos were modified. Secondly, this was quite early in the war and the Soviet pilots weren't as well-trained, though some models of their Yak fighters were much faster and agile. -
Hi Heng, I seriously recommend that trip. I've just got back from Normandy (will be posting a photojournal soon) and if you're armed with the history of the place, the feeling can be quite overwhelming. Paid visits to the American cemetery at Omaha and a Commonwealth one at Bayeux, quite emotional. Did not visit the German one though (a bit more out of the way, will visit next time).Originally posted by HENG@:yea im in UK. i've long entertained the idea of visiting Normandy to pay respects to the Allied war dead of D-Day n subsequent action, as well as Michael Wittmann -
yea i don't doubt the emotions will run high. i was at hyde park a couple of months ago. Theres a memorial there dedicated to Australian soldiers, and all their campaigns were on the memorial. I went along, then when i got to singapore i stopped, my throat went dry and tears welled up in my eyes. I know how hard the Aussies fought for sg.Originally posted by Viper52:Hi Heng, I seriously recommend that trip. I've just got back from Normandy (will be posting a photojournal soon) and if you're armed with the history of the place, the feeling can be quite overwhelming. Paid visits to the American cemetery at Omaha and a Commonwealth one at Bayeux, quite emotional. Did not visit the German one though (a bit more out of the way, will visit next time). -
HI Viper 52
I guess with practically no armour on the Ki27,KI43 and A6m2 the .303 should do okay!
One day will have to visit Normandy... maybe also visit those small town like Carantan, and all that.... FOr Europe I did visit Arhem bridge! had a small memorial on the bridge commemorating John Frost ! now named John Frost Bridge ! Quite emotional when I was up there.... Maybe Eindhoven and Nijmegan would be next to go.!
DaveC -
I heard that some time later, a batch of hurricanes arrived and on first day of operations, shot down 5 unescorted Jap bombers. Next day, went to attack escorted bombers and lost 3.