Defence against rocket barrages
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I understand that the best method will be to destroy the launchers before the rockets are fired but we may not always be so lucky. Anyone of these rockets can cause extensive damage as we live in a densely populated country. Can our current air defence systems take on multiple launched rockets such as from the Astros?
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Theres only one thing we can do. Run!
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I read (think is either Janes or DefenceNews) that the US military is using the USN's PHALANX system (deployed on some low-loader) and deployed them at some US bases in Iraq as a form of CIWS against mortars launched by Iraqi insurgents against these bases.
Well, have not heard news of any coalition casualties from any these mortars lobbed against them so.... guess the system works (?)..
I doubt the land-based PHALANX is available for mass-production vis-a-vis foreign sale but hey, if the PHALANX can take on small targets like mortars, surely it can take on 'BIGGER' targets like Astro rockets!
Anyway, back to the question. Remember years before, when Hizbollah tend to fire constantly those Katyusha rockets from S Lebanon and it became sort of a 'nuisance' (sometimes causing fatalities) to N Israel (esp those staying at the Kiyat Shimona area) & Tel Aviv seems to be pretty helpless (short of launching a ground incursion into S Lebanon) in preventing such attacks?
DefenceNews (I think) reported that in response to this 'need', there was a joint US & Israeli cooperation into developing sort of a ground-base laser that can intercept and destroy (in flight) of any incoming Katyusha rockets. I remember seeing this on TV (a high-powered lens showing the cross-hairs on an incoming Katysuha rocket and followed by a high-beam shot on it and the rocket subsequently exploded mid-air) and it was pretty successful as it was subsequently reported that repeated trials managed to 'defeat' the rockets.
The above counter-measure systems are available (minus int'l sale) but not sure if the SAF (or any other armed forces esp those from SEA) have any current means against such threats... -
Instead of looking at how to destory the rockets !Originally posted by tankee1981:I understand that the best method will be to destroy the launchers before the rockets are fired but we may not always be so lucky. Anyone of these rockets can cause extensive damage as we live in a densely populated country. Can our current air defence systems take on multiple launched rockets such as from the Astros?
Why don't you think of how the buildigs should be designed and what materials to use to enable the place to aborb and withstand rockets.
Rockets have different type of warheads. If aim is to cause most casulity you would go for bomblets type, which is not too effect in urban area if most people is inside the buildings. If those buildings are well designed and right material used, the effect of the bomblets can be aborbed and withstand by the materials keeping most people who are in-door safe.
For rocket that don't disperse bomblets, then it destruction power will be concentrated on the place of impact. The design of the building and material is important to contain the blast . Yes a direct hit may take out 3-4 rooms but not the whole block.
In fact in urban situation, rocket is in fact not that as effective as most think, because we seen too much movies on how easy building can be blown up. Ask demolition companies that specialise in blown down buildings, you will then understand how much tons explosives and also must be place at critical point before a building can go down.
The most is it take out a few rooms on a direct hit only. Remember 3/4 of the rocket is fuels which is quickly use up in launch. the leave over 1/4 have guidance system and other things which leave little space of explosive, just enough if combine with the speed to take out a few rooms but not enough to take bring down a whole building -
CIWS vs motar/rockets strike
??? wat crap, so how u detect n track them,CIWS cant even lock-on 2 them 
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C'mon leh, I'm just sharing what I saw and knew (in print & from TV) and hopefully share this little info to all here and if you know something that we don't, why not you enlighten us.Originally posted by spartan6:...CIWS cant even lock-on 2 them 
Remember, this is a discussion group where we exchange ideas/'know-how' (& hopefully 'share useful info' to SOME TOP MINDEF officers who are also reading the threads to gather 'feedback' hee... heee ) and correct any wrong misconceptions so let's share your knowledge here, thanks.
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Use AA gun with fire control radar like those guns we have in the navy? airburst ammunition as a cheaper alternative?
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Using a CIWS against sounds like good idea against mortar bombs. They tend to be slow. Rockets hmm doubtful
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Don't worry so much lah. It's always been Singapore's doctrine for forward defence. Nowadays people talk about pre-emptive strikes. Meaning, hit thy enemies before he hit you. By the time he realises it, you are already drinking samsu at his home. Singapore can absorb some home damages if a dozen or two stray rockets get through.
Even if they won't, bet your asses that at least some 155mm or 105mm can. It's part and parcel of hostilies ma.
Singapore can win, but be prepared for a bloody nose. -
NO NO NO tat not wat i means it wasnt aimmed at u ,just moking e US
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Oops, *Paiseh* Bro spartan6, pleasse accept my apologies.Originally posted by spartan6:NO NO NO tat not wat i means it wasnt aimmed at u ,just moking e US
But let's get back to the topic, IMO given the 'urgency' (of an interim counter-measure against mortat attacks), the PHALANX is the next best (?) alternative, short of able to detect the mortar teams prior to the firing (remember the Predator attack on the Iraqi insurgent team preparing some road-side bomb?) to 'defeat' them. -
By the way can our current air defence cope with such an attack? Namely the I-HAWK?
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Our current air defence cannot cope with such an attack. In fact no defense system in the world is capable of that.Originally posted by tankee1981:By the way can our current air defence cope with such an attack? Namely the I-HAWK?
I-hawk is a very impressive system, that why we are still using it today. But against rocket barrages, the chances if it intercepting it is very slim.
Even is intercepted, the attack is usually just diverted, it will still cause damages.
The is 2 ways to defeat these attacks.
1) to take it the launchers and prevent it from being supply.
2) buildings must be design to aborb the damages. -
Originally posted by storywolf
This is indeed worrying as the Malaysian army have already deployed the Astros for sometime. I am puzzled that there are technology whereby we can shoot down fast-flying and guided missiles such as our Delta frigates having the Aster 15. But we cannot deal with an unguided rocket which cannot maneover in flight.
Our current air defence cannot cope with such an attack. In fact no defense system in the world is capable of that. -
hmm my guess is dat guided missiles have trajectory predetermined but dynamic and stable, therefor the counter missile system would calculate n match as close as to dat incoming missile fer direct or proximity interception. The incoming missile would not do much changes in itz flight pattern as this would affect much of itz accuracy and therefore, itz relatively much more easier fer anti-missile-misile system to rectify any changes in the incoming missile trajectory. For unguided rocket, my guess is itz trajectory is juz a rough estimation. The flight pattern of the unguided rocket can be greatly affected by elements like strong wind n etc. after a long distance flight therefor it would b quite hard fer any anti-unguided rocket to maintained as close as to its roughly estimated flight path as it bcomes more unstable. I guess if its impossible to calculate n rectify the unguided rocket at realtime, interception by missile wouldn't work. I know that israel has developed some sort of high intensity laser beam system that can shoot down unguided rocket. Its tested n proven n i belief the principle behind it is bcos the system had roughly estimated where the rocket might go next (matrix), n using high intensity laser beam(which travels at speed of light), it fires during dat mere miliseconds wen the unguided rocket happen to pass thru dat estimated matrix. There is certainly no way anitink not even a rocket can outrun a laser beam travelling at the speed of light being fired at it wen it crosses dat estimated matrix, therefor an almost accurate interception all the time... juz 2cents of my opinion..im no pro in rocket science...would love to hear from others perpective tooOriginally posted by tankee1981:This is indeed worrying as the Malaysian army have already deployed the Astros for sometime. I am puzzled that there are technology whereby we can shoot down fast-flying and guided missiles such as our Delta frigates having the Aster 15. But we cannot deal with an unguided rocket which cannot maneover in flight. -
Even for Delta Frigates with the Aster 15, there is no 100% defence.Originally posted by tankee1981:This is indeed worrying as the Malaysian army have already deployed the Astros for sometime. I am puzzled that there are technology whereby we can shoot down fast-flying and guided missiles such as our Delta frigates having the Aster 15. But we cannot deal with an unguided rocket which cannot maneover in flight.
In the defence world, with the anti-ship missile people saying their missile can penetrate anything. And the other side air-to-air people saying their missile can take out anti-ship missile . There is alway loop holes and no 100%, it all depend on tactics, method and timing of usage. Even for the best defence systems or attack systems, they still can be blind, tricked . -
Since we do not have any capability to shoot down incoming rockets (at least not officially) then should we be getting MLRS of our own? I think Singapore's artillery is already top-notch in SEA, rockets though not as accurate as tube artillery but have the added advantage of range. When armed with a FAE warhead it can easily be used as a 'silver bullet'. Comments?
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One of the methods currently used (in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as in Gaza Strip ) to spot enemy mortar teams and Qassam rocket launch teams are armed UAVs such as the Predator and Global Hawk (do a 'search' on 'UAV' in military.com) in the fight against terrorism. The Yanks are also using their UAVs in Iraq to hunt for IEDs.
That was how quite a number of terrorists were liquidated in the above mentioned places. UAVs can also be used for aerial recces. I think they are part of the current 3G doctrine adopted by SAF.
The operators can actually fly these UAVs remotely, say in Singapore's scenarios, in underground bunkers. Probably these dudes can be recruited from all the XBOX gamers when they enlist for NS.. 
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aaa
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tankee always ask interesting questions
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Thanks...i have an inquisitive mind since young...I don't take things as they are...i am more concerned about how all the weapons systems work together for a particular function instead of scrutinising the specs of individual weapon systems...i want to see the big picture...
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It have come to my notice that few of our army camps have any air raid shelters or hardened bunkers. So in the event of a surprise attack with air strikes or in this case artillery bombardment, we will be at a serious disadvantage. Because surely some of it will get through our defences.
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Singapore has express interest in MRLS for quite some time liao but due 2 fear of setting off an arm-race we never persuit them but now Malaysia has e Astro III , MRLS or similar systems may not be far behind for us Quiff