Sidewinders for our submarines?
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Sidewinders for Anti-Aircraft Defense
by James Dunnigan
February 22, 2006
Discussion Board on this DLS topic
he U.S. has successfully tested an AIM9X Sidewinder air-to-air missile finding and hitting a target after being launched straight up from the ground. The 9X version of the Sidewinder has a much more sensitive heat seeker, as well as a wider arc the seeker can sense, making it capable of operating like this. The purpose of the test is to supply American submarines with an ability to take down aircraft, particularly helicopters, that are hunting them. U.S. nuclear attack subs have sensors that can detect a helicopter up there, but lack a weapon to respond with. Anti-submarine helicopters carry sensors (usually sonobuoys) that can get a more precise fix on a sub, and torpedoes, with which to destroy the sub below. The sub cannot outrun the helicopter. Actually, attempting to do that would just make more noise for the sonobuoys to pick up. Diving deeper won't work against the more modern torpedoes carried by helicopters. Thus the need for a weapon that can bring down the helicopter, before the sub takes a fatal torpedo hit. The anti-aircraft weapon would probably be in the form of a capsule released from a torpedo tube that, as it reached the surface, would release the Sidewinder missile.
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/200622205153.asp -
E german also have a silmilar system based on e irst missile but face guiding problem when e sub is submerged
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The Russians mount theirs on their "sail". But that would require the submarine to expose their sail to launch.
I think a slightly better alternative would be encasing the SidewinderX in a torpedo tube(similar to the UGM-84 HARPOON). This tube would then be launched to the surface down the helo's bearing. Once this tube breaches the surface, exposes the missile and ignites the missile's motors after the first target it sees down the bearing. -
But then how 2 guide it
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Sidewinder = heat -seeking missile?
It will detect the helo's heat signature and go after it like a shark smelling a bleeding wound. -
Even a heat-seeking missile need 2 lock-on 2 a target in order 2 stand a gd chance of hitting it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Do a cold launch and get friendly fire, I don't think so.
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Erhhh... I think if there is friendly choppers or planes nearby, I don't think the sub would have to worry about enemy choppers no?Originally posted by touchstone_2000:Do a cold launch and get friendly fire, I don't think so. -
true.. but how are they going to know if it's friend or foe?Originally posted by insouciant:Erhhh... I think if there is friendly choppers or planes nearby, I don't think the sub would have to worry about enemy choppers no? -
They'll be advised of friendlies operating in the area. As well as civilian presence. It will be part of their rules of engagement.
But shooting such a missile would still be a high risk maneuver. Firstly, u need to slow down to a certain speed and launch the tube down the bearing of the contact. Thats assuming that the target is actually in range. If its not, then the submarine would have given away its position.
Its also quite last resort I would think... Most prob the helo would have fixed the submarine alr, and the sub would have to prevent the helo from dropping a torp on them. Hmmm... I GUESS. Yes, pK wouldn't be too high. -
main objective is to present a threat to the attacking helo and make it be more cautious....
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By the way can our submarines launch Harpoon missiles through the torpedo tubes? If we have this capability then launching of the sidewinder by this way may be possible for RSN.
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I do not think we have such a capability. Neither do we really need it I guess. In fact, I highly doubt this is an effective way to sink a ship.
1. Without raising the radar antennae to sweep and confirm the target's location, the risk of collateral damage is very high, as the harpoon can accidentally target the wrong ship.
2. Most warships have CIWS as well as SAMs to shoot missiles down, but not all have towed decoys against torpedoes.
3. Launching harpoons from torpedoes requires subs to operate at a relatively shallow depth and a speed no greater than 4knots.
4. To sink ships, u dun punch holes that let air in. U punch holes that let water in. =D -
Hmm i know there is such a thing called Anti-Missile-Missile, but is there such a thing as Anti-Torpedo-Torpedo.....hmm somebody ought to R&D such idea.
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the acoustic properties of water is too unreliable to make such an anti-torpedo torpedo reliable.
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Actually this technology of launching Harpoon missiles from torpedo tubes have been around for quite some time. If RSN have this capability then we may have a chance of developing submarine launched sidewinders by ourselves because they are launched the same way as indicated in the very first article in this thread.
Submarines fire a capsule containing the Harpoon from their torpedo tubes. When the capsule breaches the surface, the top is blown off and the missile is launched.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/agm-84.htm
Side Note: Harpoons launched from submarines can also be of the AGM-84 Harpoon
SLAM [Stand-Off Land Attack Missile] variant, so not necessarily all Harpoons are to be used in anti-ship role. -
To sink ships, you need to burst as many water tight compartments as possible so as to achieve negative bouyancy, eg sink.Originally posted by Shotgun:I do not think we have such a capability. Neither do we really need it I guess. In fact, I highly doubt this is an effective way to sink a ship.
1. Without raising the radar antennae to sweep and confirm the target's location, the risk of collateral damage is very high, as the harpoon can accidentally target the wrong ship.
2. Most warships have CIWS as well as SAMs to shoot missiles down, but not all have towed decoys against torpedoes.
3. Launching harpoons from torpedoes requires subs to operate at a relatively shallow depth and a speed no greater than 4knots.
4. To sink ships, u dun punch holes that let air in. U punch holes that let water in. =D -
There is an anti-torpedo system(rbu-12000) a russian asw 10-tube rocket system
capable of firing anti-torp rocket, mine ,anti-sub rocket n torp-decoy. Its fitted on e russian carrier
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hmm interesting enough, i didn't know there is already an anti-torpedo-torpedo. Its known as MK-46, currently 1 of the torpedoes widely used by US Navy.
The info where i got it from:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/printthread.php?t=41971 -
MK46 is a light-weight ASW torp not anti-torp torp, Mk54 is replacement for e MK46 also a ASW torp , e MK50 is also a light-weight but is desige 2 attack those very deep diving russian subs up 2 600m n e MK48 ACAP is an heavy dual-purpose torp
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Hmm I've read somewhere that the mark46s didn carry enuff firepower to kill submarines. esp those ex-soviet double hulled ones.
Mk48 ADCAPs are strictly submarine torpedoes. As in they aren't air dropped. THey are launched by subs. -
E mk46 dun need 2 it desiged for hunting SSK tat why e US is using MK50
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Just to side track abit, can torpedoes and anti-ship missiles be deployed on our new Seahawks? If so what type and did we ordered them in the deal?
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AIM9X
hasn't this been around since the early to mid 90s?
It was available when I played Jane's ATF. -
E SH-60 can carry penguin anti-ships misiles, hellfire, sea skua, AGM-65 n light-weight ASW torp like A244S,MK46,MK50,MK54,stingray etc but since we not hunting SSN/SSBN in these shallow water so we wont be needing MK50