F/A-18F guns down F-22A
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http://alert5.com/2006/04/fa-18f-guns-down-f-22a.html
HUD camera recording from Super Hornet getting a guns kill on a Raptor. -
This shouldn't be much of a surprise as the Raptor have been designed with stealth in mind. Maneourvability is sacrificed for stealth. The Raptor survives by trying to avoid being detected and thus being drawn into a close proximity gun-fight.
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The F22 is just overated if you ask me. It's a propaganda like all other new US weapons. Don't get me wrong, they are great weapons it's just that they don't perform as advertise most of the time.
The F22 has lower RCS from the front and slightly lower in other sides..and some RAM properties... that's all. It's not invincible nor Invisible. They can be detected like any other Radars, especially in low band spectrum. It seems only US radar can't detect them. Lowering the RCS only allow shorter detection but by not much. Not to mention, if the F22 starts painting targets it illuminate itself. Of course, it can rely on AWAC by datalink, but then it will Emit em.
BTW It's useless against IRST, lowering the aft exhaust heat effectively is really moot. If it can, it defies common pyhsics.
I mean seriously, is there any reliable testing datas out there ? NO ? All articles written about it is full of speculations and imaginations. Any thing that leaked or given out officially are cloudy.. like 1:10, 1:15 ratios are ridiculous in the real world, Especially the F22 has only 8 weapons load in the bay. Then there is the problem with it's range, with internal bay, against the size. I am sketical about it's 800 combat radius cliams. -
I always thought they wanted the AWACS to paint and guide the missiles with the F-22's just launching. Then again when they do launch they expose themselves.Originally posted by MobyDog:The F22 is just overated if you ask me. It's a propaganda like all other new US weapons. Don't get me wrong, they are great weapons it's just that they don't perform as advertise most of the time.
The F22 has lower RCS from the front and slightly lower in other sides..and some RAM properties... that's all. It's not invincible nor Invisible. They can be detected like any other Radars, especially in low band spectrum. It seems only US radar can't detect them. Lowering the RCS only allow shorter detection but by not much. Not to mention, if the F22 starts painting targets it illuminate itself. Of course, it can rely on AWAC by datalink, but then it will Emit em.
BTW It's useless against IRST, lowering the aft exhaust heat effectively is really moot. If it can, it defies common pyhsics.
I mean seriously, is there any reliable testing datas out there ? NO ? All articles written about it is full of speculations and imaginations. Any thing that leaked or given out officially are cloudy.. like 1:10, 1:15 ratios are ridiculous in the real world, Especially the F22 has only 8 weapons load in the bay. Then there is the problem with it's range, with internal bay, against the size. I am sketical about it's 800 combat radius cliams.
Why is loving the heat exhaust moot? I mean it did work in the F117A.
I'm not sure about the rest though heh havent really kept up to date on the program other then knowing they finally put 2 sqns out hah -
there are a few comments by usaf pilots over that dogfight in that posting now.
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LOL! I would have to agree with the AF pilots.
Its a crappy "single-opportunity" shot, just look at the closure speed. 2nd, at that distance, at that angle, it might have resulted in a collision if not for really slow 180kts. But in all, it was really too close for this kinda angle. -
Video would be better then that single frameOriginally posted by Shotgun:LOL! I would have to agree with the AF pilots.
Its a crappy "single-opportunity" shot, just look at the closure speed. 2nd, at that distance, at that angle, it might have resulted in a collision if not for really slow 180kts. But in all, it was really too close for this kinda angle. -
There is another pic, I'll post it tomorrow.
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Yeah, we really need to see more... haha.
I guess a kill is a kill. The rounds would probably have hit and disabled the jet if there was real rounds fired. Looks the USAF pilot undersestimated the Navy Pilot's determination to kill the most expensive combat aircraft in history. Even if it meant violating training safety regulations. -
Originally posted by |-|05|:
First of all... AWAC might not always be available or within desired range. This tactic might only be safety employed in a third world country and air superiority attained.. in most circumstances. But then again US has only been invading and attacking Third world countries anyway.
[b]I always thought they wanted the AWACS to paint and guide the missiles with the F-22's just launching. Then again when they do launch they expose themselves.
Why is loving the heat exhaust moot? I mean it did work in the F117A.
I'm not sure about the rest though heh havent really kept up to date on the program other then knowing they finally put 2 sqns out hah[/b]
In a way, wouldn't that make the F22 dependence on AWACs, and this really lower their range of capabilities and deployabilities ? If the F22 only depends on AESA and missle technology.. wouldn't a F16/18 do the same.. abide the RCS.Why is loving the heat exhaust moot? I mean it did work in the F117A.
Well, you see... super cruise or not.. there will be exhaust plum. What I say is effectively ? which is impossible.. the heat has go go somewhere and be converted to other form of energy, but how to disperse this amt of heat in duration?
On the F117 variants, It's not a fighter at all.. it has not radar nor targeting capabilties by itself. It depended on satelites and AWAC guidance. AS I say, the F117 was deployed only in third world countries where they do not face effective enemies SAM networks. The F117 was detected by the British during GW1. Then, please remember in the opening shots of the "Shock 'n' Awe" by the F117s in Iraq. They were detected 20 mins before they released their JDAMs. The Sirens were wailing for about 20 mins.. it just that they had no sams to deal with it. (they SAM were totally destroyed illegally by both british and US bombardments in the months ahead of the invasion.. in the guise of protecting the no-fly zone crap)
If the Iraqis and Serbians have the S200 and S300 variants operational ( IF they have not been bombed by hundreds of Fighter..) It might see the difference.
I'm not saying the F22 is a not a most modern fighter out there now, but claims about it.. is ridiculous. It's just another fighter with updated advance electronics( that runs in 16bit
the last I heard) and lower RCS .. as it's advantage. It don't even have an agile airframe.
I would say a 1:2 ratio against SU30mki or Typhoon is a more realistic claim. And only if you consider a first launch chance in BVR engagement. ( if their AAM are of equal technological level). If both detects each other about the same time ( remember detection and launching in effective range is two different things) then the Ratio is 1:1.5. If against the British "Meteor" I would say it's a fair challenge.
In other words, it would down to the BVRM and Radar (passive and Phase)deployed. -
E F-22A has a G-limit of 9/-4 n e F/A-18E/F has a G-limit of 7.5/-3
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According to Every Man a Tiger, ( by no means I'm quoting it as a definite reference source to the first gulf war ), it explained that initially OTHER aircraft such as the EF-111Gs were covering the F-117s ingress with their jammers. Hence the Air Raid Sirens went off when the Jammings were detected.Originally posted by MobyDog:Well, you see... super cruise or not.. there will be exhaust plum. What I say is effectively ? which is impossible.. the heat has go go somewhere and be converted to other form of energy, but how to disperse this amt of heat in duration?
On the F117 variants, It's not a fighter at all.. it has not radar nor targeting capabilties by itself. It depended on satelites and AWAC guidance. AS I say, the F117 was deployed only in third world countries where they do not face effective enemies SAM networks. The F117 was detected by the British during GW1. Then, please remember in the opening shots of the "Shock 'n' Awe" by the F117s in Iraq. They were detected 20 mins before they released their JDAMs. The Sirens were wailing for about 20 mins.. it just that they had no sams to deal with it. (they SAM were totally destroyed illegally by both british and US bombardments in the months ahead of the invasion.. in the guise of protecting the no-fly zone crap)
If the Iraqis and Serbians have the S200 and S300 variants operational ( IF they have not been bombed by hundreds of Fighter..) It might see the difference.
I'm not saying the F22 is a not a most modern fighter out there now, but claims about it.. is ridiculous. It's just another fighter with updated advance electronics( that runs in 16bit the last I heard) and lower RCS .. as it's advantage. It don't even have an agile airframe.
I would say a 1:2 ratio against SU30mki or Typhoon is a more realistic claim. And only if you consider a first launch chance in BVR engagement. ( if their AAM are of equal technological level). If both detects each other about the same time ( remember detection and launching in effective range is two different things) then the Ratio is 1:1.5. If against the British "Meteor" I would say it's a fair challenge.
In other words, it would down to the BVRM and Radar (passive and Phase)deployed.
However, they soon realised that the F-117s were actually effective, and later in the 100hr war, they stopped the jamming when the F-117s were about to attack. It did result in a much shorten reaction time, hence less anti aircraft fire.
Conceded though, the stealth technology is not PERFECT by anymeans. It simply means that its harder to detect the aircraft via CONVENTIONAL radar and ADA networks. Every technological development will unavoidably lead to further counter-developments. Every action will result in an equal an opposite reaction. Unavoidably.
The opening shot in the first gulf war, was carried out by UAVs carrying B-52 transponders, and waves of AGM-88s behind. It lit up the KARI network and wiped out the french built system in one night. No kidding the air raid sirens went off.... seeing swarms of "B-52s"
Warfare is now "network" centric. U dun have to have the ULTIMATE super agile fighter to win a fight. I personally don't think the F-22 is such an aircraft. But its data links, stealth, as well as man-machine interface, allows it to complement a network centric system.
About the amount of G-s the aircraft were pulling... neither was pulling too hard. It looked to me that the Hornet was trying to take a quick snap shot, which he luckily GOT as the F-22 sailed into his gun pipper. At 180kts, he's gonna go straight and get some airspeed right after he passes the F-22. He doesn't have time or airspeed to roll right, and pull a high-g gun pass at the F-22. I'm guessing the F-18 went up and over.... -
No aircraft is perfect ,all aircraft have weakness, it is a matter of compromise
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why is it all about the aircraft here?
has anybody considered the skill of the pilots, or perhaps it's too hard a thing to actually debate? -
Ya anyway 1 pic does not prove anything
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Well, i guess the only fair thing to say is that the F-22 would have been hit and fairly damaged in actual combat.
But that doesn't mean im gonna like the SuperHornet more than a Blk52 falcon. =D
PS : *it has something to do with this "kinda" gun kill.* -
err...the 2nd pic really shld be the 1st pic shldnt it be? Looking at the info displayed on the HUD,I'm guessing it was when the f22 1st popped into the HUD
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Yes, the 2nd pic is actually the 1st in the sequence. I got hold of the newer pic before I found this one.
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geee.. where did u get these hud cam shots from? Got any with the JDAM symbology on? haha
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interestingOriginally posted by alert5:Yes, the 2nd pic is actually the 1st in the sequence. I got hold of the newer pic before I found this one. -
1st a Falcon pilot, then a Hornet pilot, later a Tomcat old timer joined in and now a Strike Eagle pilot has commented as well.
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Well there you have it... Superbug pilot was going all out to get HUD shots, got too close to the world's most expensive fighter, and Raptor pilot concerned more about safety gave the "knock it off."
Still... its nice to see relatively modern hud footage! =D -
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I think the whole saga is just stupid anyway. The naval aviator trying to prove he can get a shot at the Raptor. Heck, anyone can get any gun shot at anybody...look at the Israeli pilots during the 50s and the 60s, their gun kills were not achieved because they had better planes, it was all about tactics and the pilots' skills.
In real war, the Raptor would be flown differently and with their thrust vectoring and their advanced avionics (plus JHMCS/AIM-9X) I will be suprised if they don't eat 95% of their enemies 1st past. Seriously. if a Raptor driver is crap (which I don't think so as they are handpicked), then it is a totally different story. BTW, there is also such things as luck - "being at the right place, at the right time". Even ace pilots can be shot down!