Traitor in SAF
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The last time the SAF got into a fire fight was in 1964/65 when 2SIR got ambushed by Indonesian paras at Johor.
They were swimming in the river when the paras came. Sentry was kooning.
Quite a number came back to Holland Road camp in body bags............
Don't even need incompetent officers to do the job........ -
There is no way to predict where the enemy will ambush you. What you have are info from the battalion scouts and signs that your company reccee team bash through an area safely.Originally posted by HENG@:or do we let them lead their men into ambushes and slaughters and lose the war? i thought u were quite happy to protect murderers if it helps the nation?
hey in a war if their men decide to kill them, too bad. who ask them to be incompetent.
OC might holland, but usually they follow the trails left by the CRT.
If you think the CSM is a better navigator .. then better the CSM assist him than killing him and letting CSM take over. -
We're talking about traitors here so what has incompetent officers gotta do with it? And who are you to judge incompetence? By saying that, you're implying that you would make a very competent officer.
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Traitors can be good , but only in certain context.
I admire the person who betrayed chiang kai shek and made him work with communists to fight japanese. -
Those indonesian paras got caught later ?Originally posted by idwar:The last time the SAF got into a fire fight was in 1964/65 when 2SIR got ambushed by Indonesian paras at Johor.
They were swimming in the river when the paras came. Sentry was kooning.
Quite a number came back to Holland Road camp in body bags............
Don't even need incompetent officers to do the job........
Then they got executed in singapore..... -
ya but in a war if they want to shoot them, whos to stop them?Originally posted by Icemoon:If anyone can suka suka shoot their own OC, then trust me no officer or senior enlisted will dare to take over.
Why? 'cos they might be the next one to get shot!
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well either way, if they want to shoot the officer, who stop them? u ah?Originally posted by Icemoon:There is no way to predict where the enemy will ambush you. What you have are info from the battalion scouts and signs that your company reccee team bash through an area safely.
OC might holland, but usually they follow the trails left by the CRT.
If you think the CSM is a better navigator .. then better the CSM assist him than killing him and letting CSM take over.
go ahead lor -
this is very true. in what sense a traitor? u can't really call the guy a traitor because he had the interest of his country 1st.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:Traitors can be good , but only in certain context.
I admire the person who betrayed chiang kai shek and made him work with communists to fight japanese.
and what about yue fei? he disobeyed his emperor. does that make him a traitor? in the emperor's eyes, yue fei was certainly one.
its easy to call people traitors, but it all depends on perspective. Of course if someone was just turning against their own nation out of greed or cowardice, its clear cut, but when one turns "traitor" for idealogical reasons? -
No doubt Zhang Xueliang had a passion for kicking Japanese butt and felt the only way to defeat them was to put up a united front, but he was later placed under house arrest in Taiwan and later exiled to USA, if I am not mistaken. This fellow lived to a ripe old age but was plagued by ill health.
Yue Fei was a real patriot indeed. He felt that the emperor's oeders to pull back made no sense as the Jurchens were still rampant. In actual fact, there was a spy (Qin Gui) at the royal court who told the emperor to issue such an order. In this case, Qin was the real traitor, not General Yue. -
if you're so afraid of kenna ambush and such, it means you're afraid of death. Frankly speaking, who is not?Originally posted by HENG@:ya but in a war if they want to shoot them, whos to stop them?
if so .. you wont shoot your own people 'cos you are going against all of them. Will you rather face gunfire alone or with your buddies?
of course .. if the whole section or platoon supports you, it'll be a mutiny. -
Yue fei is kind of blur....he disobeyed 12 emperor's plaques to return home...Originally posted by iveco:No doubt Zhang Xueliang had a passion for kicking Japanese butt and felt the only way to defeat them was to put up a united front, but he was later placed under house arrest in Taiwan and later exiled to USA, if I am not mistaken. This fellow lived to a ripe old age but was plagued by ill health.
Yue Fei was a real patriot indeed. He felt that the emperor's oeders to pull back made no sense as the Jurchens were still rampant. In actual fact, there was a spy (Qin Gui) at the royal court who told the emperor to issue such an order. In this case, Qin was the real traitor, not General Yue.
then they arrested him , he should have like used his army to protect him.. -
How? By storming his army into the palace?Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:Yue fei is kind of blur....he disobeyed 12 emperor's plaques to return home...
then they arrested him , he should have like used his army to protect him.. -
then they will shoot u and mass-desert....Originally posted by tankee1981:Although its very wrong, I can understand desertion but collaboration with the enemy is totally unacceptable! In order to prevent collaboration with the enemy, i will personally shoot my men should they desert in combat to prevent mass desertions from happening. Mass desertions will cripple the entire unit!
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Seize the throne , kill emperor , unify whole china , invade and destroy everywhereOriginally posted by Icemoon:How? By storming his army into the palace? 
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not that they have higher chance of surviving.Originally posted by chunyong:then they will shoot u and mass-desert....
bump into own people they arrest you. bump into enemy they kill you. -
ahahaha. forget it la. your argument is not very cohesive. if someone wants to shoot the PC, theres not much anyone can do to stop him. u can say all u want, but the fact is, if someone just gets it into their head to shoot ANYONE in the platoon, noone can stop him because they won't know until AFTER someone has been shot.Originally posted by Icemoon:if you're so afraid of kenna ambush and such, it means you're afraid of death. Frankly speaking, who is not?
if so .. you wont shoot your own people 'cos you are going against all of them. Will you rather face gunfire alone or with your buddies?
of course .. if the whole section or platoon supports you, it'll be a mutiny. -
i see nobody here can really answer the question yet.
so do we see Yue Fei as a traitor for disobeying the emperor? -
No.Originally posted by HENG@:i see nobody here can really answer the question yet.
so do we see Yue Fei as a traitor for disobeying the emperor?
I am baffled, are you able to differentiate the good and the evil in the first place.
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No one likes war. So if war do breaks out, anyone in his right frame of mind would prefer the quick and decisive victory to restore back the peace and tranquility.Originally posted by HENG@:ahahaha. forget it la. your argument is not very cohesive. if someone wants to shoot the PC, theres not much anyone can do to stop him. u can say all u want, but the fact is, if someone just gets it into their head to shoot ANYONE in the platoon, noone can stop him because they won't know until AFTER someone has been shot.
In my opinion, no one in his right mind would go on a rampant gunning down your wartime buddies based on vengeance or accumulative hatred. The outbreak of war should have sorted out whatever hatred one has kept inside oneself that is because each and everyone know that in time of adversity, we should all the more keep a lookout for one another.
If it is towards a certain field commander failed leadership and his men is not comfortable working with him, such problems are usually forseen through routine exercises and dealt with appropriately through AAR. I personally view backstabbing as a possible scenerio yet rare where the bonds among commanders and theirs men should have been forge during NS and ICT.
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its not about good and evil. its about prespective. we can accuse someone of being a traitor but how can we be sure?Originally posted by TooFree:No.
I am baffled, are you able to differentiate the good and the evil in the first place.
like that guy who betrayed chiang kai shek to the communists? to the nationalists, the communists were the enemy, but the japanese invaders were a bigger and common enemy. how we see this case then?
im just pointing out that its easy to simply label someone a traitor, but if u dig beneath that, things are never as easy to judge.
and i also mentioned earlier we can discount those who do things out of greed. -
this is too naive a view. if u think war sorts out whatever hatred one has for others in the same uniform, i sugest u have a look back in history. there has been far too many cases where people use war as an excuse to eliminate their rivals even though they're on the same side.Originally posted by TooFree:No one likes war. So if war do breaks out, anyone in his right frame of mind would prefer the quick and decisive victory to restore back the peace and tranquility.
In my opinion, no one in his right mind would go on a rampant gunning down your wartime buddies based on vengeance or accumulative hatred. The outbreak of war should have sorted out whatever hatred one has kept inside oneself that is because each and everyone know that in time of adversity, we should all the more keep a lookout for one another.
If it is towards a certain field commander failed leadership and his men is not comfortable working with him, such problems are usually forseen through routine exercises and dealt with appropriately through AAR. I personally view backstabbing as a possible scenerio yet rare where the bonds among commanders and theirs men should have been forge during NS and ICT.
and oh yes, wartime "buddy" is a very subjective view. someone might not see himself as a "buddy" of his platoon commander or platoon sgt? and then what then?
im not saying if its right or wrong to gun down others on your same side. im saying if it happens, nobody can stop it. -
A traitor is mostly used in the context of treason, ie. betraying your country.Originally posted by HENG@:i see nobody here can really answer the question yet.
so do we see Yue Fei as a traitor for disobeying the emperor? -
So what about the helo crew which threatened to shoot their fellow americans in mai lai village? they threatened their countrymen to save the enemy vietnamese. is that considered treason?Originally posted by Icemoon:A traitor is mostly used in the context of treason, ie. betraying your country.
i think the point is, unless we're talking about cases of cowardice or personal greed, where idealogy and morals are concerned, its hard to define a traitor. -
no point going through such scenarios since these are not the actions of a reasonable person.Originally posted by HENG@:ahahaha. forget it la. your argument is not very cohesive. if someone wants to shoot the PC, theres not much anyone can do to stop him. u can say all u want, but the fact is, if someone just gets it into their head to shoot ANYONE in the platoon, noone can stop him because they won't know until AFTER someone has been shot.
If you're not locked up, you can do anything you want. You can kill yourself. You can *try* to kill someone. It is whether you succeed or not. -
if you want an objective answer .. yes.Originally posted by HENG@:So what about the helo crew which threatened to shoot their fellow americans in mai lai village? they threatened their countrymen to save the enemy vietnamese. is that considered treason?
i think the point is, unless we're talking about cases of cowardice or personal greed, where idealogy and morals are concerned, its hard to define a traitor.
Idealogy and morals have nothing to do with treason. You betray means you betray.