Arabs war on China
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http://www.bartleby.com/67/292.html
In the year AD 758
Muslim armies destroyed parts of the Chinese city of Canton.
Also in AD 747, Abbasid forces triumphed over the Chinese at the Battle of Talas in central Asia.
Seems as if the Arabs and Chinese cannot get along in those days............ -
oh, they are doing very well these days...
China needs the oil. -
Is this a hoax?
That particular period belong to the Tang Dynasty, more accurately, it supposedly happened during the time of Tang Ming Huang, Li Xuan Zong. For those who dont know him, his favourite consort is Yang Guifei.
Reading through Chinese history, incursions like the famous Xiongnu during Han Dynasty would have been recorded.
The only significant thing that happened during this time was the An Shi rebellion. An Muslim army that fought its way to Canton...Canton!..... would have been recorded..... -
Is there a point you'd like to make, idwar?
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So that people here(esp L8
can realise that Arabs had been makingt their presence felt since the tang Dynasty.
What OI had quoted is merely a little bit of Chinese -Arab problems.
If L88 wants to, he can do some research on Quanzhou, on how thousands of Arabs, Christians and Jews were put to the sword in the midst of AnLuShan's rebellion.
Anyway, AnLUShan was not Chinese........to think that he caused the great Tang Dynasty to wobble and fall.......... -
I see no point in this discussion ? he he..
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Hey Laureence82,
It's recorded OK?
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:iOV0Tl7U20QJ:www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D580+massacre+of+Arabs+in+guangzhou+Canton&hl=en -
"United into a single empire by Islam, the Persians and Arabs brought such nautical skill and business acumen to maritime trade that by the middle of the 8th century, large merchant communities were residing in Guangzhou (Canton), the leading port of the ‘Nanhai’ trade, and Yangzhou, a transshipment point where the Grand Canal met the Yangzi River. After the An Lushan rebellion of 755 precipitated civil war in north China, cutting off the transshipment routes, the Persians and Arabs in Guangzhou simply pillaged the warehouses and sailed off with the loot. This was in 758; two years later, the tables were turned when a Tang army plundered Yangzhou while suppressing rebels, and killed thousands of Persian and Arab merchants. Most of the others then moved their trade westwards to Hanoi for nearly 40 years. From 794, Guangzhou slowly recovered its preeminence, until the next great upheaval - Huang Chao’s rebellion of 874-884. In 878, Huang captured Guangzhou and conducted a massacre of all foreigners – this time, the victims included Muslims, Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians."
I read the articlesn the url you provided, and the only thing I can find about Arabs in Guangzhou is this, so a bunch of Arabs opportunist merchants pillaging the city's warehouse during a period of civil strife count as as Abbassid Army sacking Guangdong?
An Lushan may be a Muslim or Turkish/Sogian from other sources, but this is a time of civil war, not clashes between two mighty empires. -
whats the motive of this thread? To stir a flame war between chinese and muslims or to provide us with a history lesson?
If it is the formal, you should just go to hell.
If it is the latter, make sure you better not let me send you to hell. -
China of the past either enjoyed prosperity or busy fighting among themselves, No time to really expand beyond their territories except the Qin Dynasty who made China twice its original size
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ermmmmm .... that's not quite correct bro ....Originally posted by Agenda:China of the past either enjoyed prosperity or busy fighting among themselves, No time to really expand beyond their territories except the Qin Dynasty who made China twice its original size
China as we understood it today was not quite the monolithic superstate throughout the dynasties ... but often made up of fragmented small states ... it's like how India was made up of assorted princely states until the brits came along and the idea of "Barat" as we understand the term today was born ...
and China wasn't at her biggest during the Qin dynasty ... far from it ... if one follows those fantasy kongfu movies, you'd hear of tienshan mountains, no ? ... that's in Kazahstan today .... and that was the extent of China's empire during it's heyday ... -
Which part you are skeptical of?Originally posted by laurence82:Is this a hoax?
That particular period belong to the Tang Dynasty, more accurately, it supposedly happened during the time of Tang Ming Huang, Li Xuan Zong. For those who dont know him, his favourite consort is Yang Guifei.
Reading through Chinese history, incursions like the famous Xiongnu during Han Dynasty would have been recorded.
The only significant thing that happened during this time was the An Shi rebellion. An Muslim army that fought its way to Canton...Canton!..... would have been recorded.....
Info on Battle of Talas,from Taiwanese internet(I assume you can read Chinese):
http://tw.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/?qid=1105071006757
ADD-
Also some info regarding the sacking of Canton by Arabs,it seems that it is actually recorded by the Chinese officials:
http://tw.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/?qid=1205081210104 -
Agenda must be sleeping during his secondar school history class.........Originally posted by Fatum:ermmmmm .... that's not quite correct bro ....
China as we understood it today was not quite the monolithic superstate throughout the dynasties ... but often made up of fragmented small states ... it's like how India was made up of assorted princely states until the brits came along and the idea of "Barat" as we understand the term today was born ...
and China wasn't at her biggest during the Qin dynasty ... far from it ... if one follows those fantasy kongfu movies, you'd hear of tienshan mountains, no ? ... that's in Kazahstan today .... and that was the extent of China's empire during it's heyday ... -
You forgot Qing Dynasty, which include Tibet and Outer Mongolia in its list of territories.Originally posted by Agenda:China of the past either enjoyed prosperity or busy fighting among themselves, No time to really expand beyond their territories except the Qin Dynasty who made China twice its original size -
Better translate for me...Originally posted by liuzg150181:Which part you are skeptical of?
Info on Battle of Talas,from Taiwanese internet(I assume you can read Chinese):
http://tw.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/?qid=1105071006757
ADD-
Also some info regarding the sacking of Canton by Arabs,it seems that it is actually recorded by the Chinese officials:
http://tw.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/?qid=1205081210104
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Will take weeks pal~~~Originally posted by laurence82:Better translate for me...
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Speaking of this i think Agenda might be trying to say 'Qing' but forgot the hanyu pinyin and thus misspelt as 'Qin'~~~Originally posted by laurence82:You forgot Qing Dynasty, which include Tibet and Outer Mongolia in its list of territories.
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The funny thing is, the Battle of Talas was fought in Central Asia, at the westernmost part of Tang Empire.
The example idwar provided was pillaging of the warehouses of Canton by Arabs merchants before they were massacred by the Tang army.
So where is the Arab army that fought its way to the Chinese Canton. Canton in this case means Guangdong right? -
i dont know how to read some of the fan ti zi, plus my bahasa cina not that goodOriginally posted by liuzg150181:Will take weeks pal~~~ -
In 758, there were enough resident Arab and Persian merchants in Guangzhou (Canton) to pillage the warehouses and sail off with the loot. In 760, a Tang general led his troops into Yangzhou (another trading centre) while suppressing rebels, and masssacred thousands of Persian and Arab traders. So there were definitely large Arab communities in China. Later, there also arose Muslim militias battling each other and the central govt.
(Whenever China's central govt becqme weak, Muslim rebellions occur. There were such 5 major rebellions during the manchu Qing dynasty )
My observations is thus: What would Chinese history be like had the Arabs managed to seize and hold Canton? Would Canton be the capital of an Arab kingdom in South China? Would Cantonese be forced to convert en-mass to Islam?
In the long run, could China be Arabized? -
Perhaps in your dreamsOriginally posted by idwar:In the long run, could China be Arabized?
The premise of this scenario is so blardy ridiculous I'm surprised you're not in the entertainment industry.
Even if your Arab and Persian merchants could somehow conceivably overwhelm the uncountable hordes of Chinese around them, history has shown time and again that conquering invaders such as the Mongolians in the thirteenth and the Manchus in the seventeenth centuries have found themselves inexorably sinicized after one or two generations of ruling China. Militarily the Chinese were easily conquered, but in the end the inevitable triumph was theirs. The result? Both Mongol and Manchu were assimilated, and today are but footnotes in the cultural history of China. The mainlanders now consider the Meng and Man as Chinese as the Han, and the Yuan and Qing dynasties as an integral part of Chinese history.
(By the same coin, some of the sillier mainlanders will claim the honour of having sacked Baghdad through their Mongolian proxies.
)
In short, should the Arabs have conquered China, in short order they would have found themselves speaking Chinese and following Chinese customs.
The effect of Islamized China, however, makes for quite interesting speculation. Perhaps if Tamerlane had not perished before his planned campaign against the Ming, maybe we could have seen Islam as the predominant religon in China today.
Wait! What am I saying? Those Turkic-Mongol twits were already a vassal paying tribute to China by then. If you're looking for a clash of civilizations here, idwar, seems that you've backed the wrong horse.
(BTW, Just remembered that Tamerlane set fire to Baghdad as well.
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China did not become the world longest surviving civilisation as well as the most populous country in the world for nothing.
As Russell Peter, with regards to the billion plus Indians and Chinese in the world, said..."Run away from us!!!!"
By the way, where is the proof for this?Originally posted by idwar:http://www.bartleby.com/67/292.html
In the year AD 758
Muslim armies destroyed parts of the Chinese city of Canton.
Also in AD 747, Abbasid forces triumphed over the Chinese at the Battle of Talas in central Asia.
Seems as if the Arabs and Chinese cannot get along in those days............ -
taken from the site provided, the author said he first read of the incident from a book written by an american, Louise Levathes but Louise nor the translator did not indicate the source of this "history" so he did not pursue further.Originally posted by liuzg150181:Which part you are skeptical of?
Info on Battle of Talas,from Taiwanese internet(I assume you can read Chinese):
http://tw.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/?qid=1105071006757
ADD-[/quote] as pointed out by lawrance82, battle of talas was fought in central asia. that was more of a battle between the tang dynasty and a neighbouring state. it is not a clash between muslim and chinese civilization.
[quote]Originally posted by liuzg150181:
[b]
Also some info regarding the sacking of Canton by Arabs,it seems that it is actually recorded by the Chinese officials:
http://tw.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/?qid=1205081210104
Official chinese records say very little about this incident. In a periodical "A Study of the Gansu People" dated 1999, an article written by Mr. Wang wrote about this incident, but quoted from a English missionary, who apparently quoted from the book "Islam in China and Turkistan" written by a French scholor in 1878.
According to the article, during the An Lu San rebellion, 4000 arabians soldiers under a general Kotche were sent to help the Tang emperor but they did not leave China after the rebellion. After some trouble they created in Lou Yang, the Tang emperor arranged for them to leave China for home by sea, through Canton (thats why they were in Canton). But when they arrived in Canton (now known as Guangzhou), they refused to board the ships and ganged up with the local arabs and persian merchants and occupied some warehouses. After some negotiations, they were finally were allowed to stay, married local girls....and the French author concluded that these are the forefathers of all muslims in China.
Mr. Wang, in studying into the people of Gansu, which is a province in the far west of China, had argued that there were already many muslims in Gansu and the soldiers who went to help the Tang emperor were actually the Gansu soldiers but mistaken as the arabian soldiers.
What is the truth? Scholars are arguing, but it is definitely not a battle between china and the muslims. pls don't use this and create something else. -
from historical hearsay, it appears that the muslim arabs preferred to stay among the Chinese then going back to their own country.Originally posted by idwar:http://www.bartleby.com/67/292.html
In the year AD 758
Muslim armies destroyed parts of the Chinese city of Canton.
Also in AD 747, Abbasid forces triumphed over the Chinese at the Battle of Talas in central Asia.
Seems as if the Arabs and Chinese cannot get along in those days............
do you see muslims or arabs in china behaving like other muslims in the world?? these muslims, known as Qing Zhen Jiao Tu, respect local cutures and they coexist peacefully for generations. They are the examples of the true muslims. Learn from them!! -
Idwar, are you a malay or an arab???Originally posted by idwar:In 758, there were enough resident Arab and Persian merchants in Guangzhou (Canton) to pillage the warehouses and sail off with the loot. In 760, a Tang general led his troops into Yangzhou (another trading centre) while suppressing rebels, and masssacred thousands of Persian and Arab traders. So there were definitely large Arab communities in China. Later, there also arose Muslim militias battling each other and the central govt.
(Whenever China's central govt becqme weak, Muslim rebellions occur. There were such 5 major rebellions during the manchu Qing dynasty )
My observations is thus: What would Chinese history be like had the Arabs managed to seize and hold Canton? Would Canton be the capital of an Arab kingdom in South China? Would Cantonese be forced to convert en-mass to Islam?
In the long run, could China be Arabized?
If you are the former, then I think you have some serious identity crisis!!!!