WWII in China 1937-1945
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China had more then 2x the amount of troops compared to Japan.And let's say China wasn't involved in a civil war.would the outcome be different?
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Soviet Union fought Japan in WWII as well , in a battle
There was also a soviet spy in Tokyo who told the soviet union in 1941 that the japanese were looking towards the south..Would this have changed if this soviet spy had warned the british in advance? -
WORLD PEACE.
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I doubt that much. Only thing that changed was the moving of some 100 fresh siberian(spelling??) divisions to the west in russia. If there was no spy then those divisions would not have moved then Germany would have taken Moscow and blah blah blah.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:Soviet Union fought Japan in WWII as well , in a battle
There was also a soviet spy in Tokyo who told the soviet union in 1941 that the japanese were looking towards the south..Would this have changed if this soviet spy had warned the british in advance?
It was like the British or the Americans were shocked. War had been going on for awhile. Just that the British were way to speard out -
At that time the Japanese Imperial General Staff were divided in their opinions where to strike,the "Go North" faction,favoured by the Army,argued for the invasion of Siberia while the "Go South" faction,favoured by the Navy,intended to seize S.E. Asia.Originally posted by |-|05|:I doubt that much. Only thing that changed was the moving of some 100 fresh siberian(spelling??) divisions to the west in russia. If there was no spy then those divisions would not have moved then Germany would have taken Moscow and blah blah blah.
After the Battle of Khalkhin Gol,in which the Japanese lost the "Go South" faction's agrument gained ground and we knew the rest of the history.
Well,chanced upon Ong Chit Chung's book regarding this issue-"Operation Matador",though it browsed through a little bit its main argument is British PM Wisnton Churchill put Singapore(and ultimately S.E. Asia) low in the priority.
It was like the British or the Americans were shocked. War had been going on for awhile. Just that the British were way to speard out -
militarism in Japan SUX!!!
World Peace! -
Wouldn't have changed much if China wasn't also embroiled in a civil war.
Japan at the late 1930's was a super war machine. They were so advanced that they trained a lot of Chinese Nationalist officers before they decided to invade China.
In terms of technology, just imagined: Only the US, Britain and Japan operated aircraft carriers in WW2. That's how far ahead in doctrinal thinking they were.
They were dedicated, highly-skilled and fanatical.
Even without the civil war, both Communist and Nationalist troops were badly-trained and mostly badly-armed, poorly-led and not motivated.
The Nationalist commanders were mostly inept as cronyism guaranteed promotion over capabilties. Chiang Kai-shek himself is a tyrant and should be tried for incompetence, appeasing the Japs, killing almost as many Chinese people (suspected communists) as the Japs, and for being very willing to sacrifice his own troops.
Although there were some very capable commanders these are too few to make an impact. -
All thanks to Gen Zhang Xueliang who imprison Chinag Kai Shek at Xi An and force him to work together with the communist to fight the Japs....or else Chiang's policy is to fight the communist first then fight the jap...
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i agree with you.
Even Edgar Snow had the same view as you.Originally posted by riken1974:All thanks to Gen Zhang Xueliang who imprison Chinag Kai Shek at Xi An and force him to work together with the communist to fight the Japs....or else Chiang's policy is to fight the communist first then fight the jap... -
civil war?
didnt they combined to defend against japan? -
I feel ashame of having a bit of Chinese blood in me tho..
The chinese... ALWAYS fighting each other! Like there's no tomorrow. What a disgrace!
Yuk!
We all should learn from the japs regarding the areas like honour and integrity... as well as the koreans regarding areas of national pride and courage.
chinese? nothing can be said about them, except gluttony.
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I agree with what TvDog had said earlier.
Here is my add on.
The emperor at that time in Japan is a highly ambitious man who his wish was to rule the world by himself, that create a strong, loyal imperial army that is willing to sacrifice willingly for his country at any point in time. On the other hand, China itself has been very poor after several revolutionary eras, where there are a severely lack of food and amenities as well as many are illiterate and were not really aware what was going on beyond their countries.
The invasion by the Japanese was well planned and prepared. Early before they set their army on the land in China, they had already infiltrate many spies to the country.
Most important, the Chinese counterpart is totally unprepared for the war.
Therefore, even without the civil war among communities and nationalist, China is too weak to defend themselves at that time, with lack good commanders and highly motivate soldiers.
In actual fact, many Chinese soldiers disappointedly surrendered themselves even without a fight with their enemies due to shortage of ammunitions, food, medicine resources. -
Wow...Originally posted by The Emperor:I feel ashame of having a bit of Chinese blood in me tho..
The chinese... ALWAYS fighting each other! Like there's no tomorrow. What a disgrace!
Yuk!
We all should learn from the japs regarding the areas like honour and integrity... as well as the koreans regarding areas of national pride and courage.
chinese? nothing can be said about them, except gluttony.
China is maybe ten times the size of Japan. It is probably about the size of Europe. So inveitably, distance leads to differences, and differences sometimes lead to conflict.
People in Guangzhou, for example, are very different from people in, say Beijing. They look different, have different statures, complexions, behave differently, wear different clothes and even eat different types of noodles. They speak dialects incomprehensible to each other. It's just like comparing different Europeans like French and Italians.
And the Europeans never stopped fighting amonst themselves either.
Compared to China, Japan is a small island nation. And they had been fighting amonst themselves for a VERY LONG time until the Meiji era or something where one Shogun (warlord) defeated and united the whole Japan. China was the same but because of her size, took a longer time to sort things out. The Koreans, erm... aren't they still separated after last fighting a war sixty years ago?
But China is one people and today, one nation again.
Chinese people have a long history of civilisation, science, culture and innovation and many other good values. It would take 100 times more pages to list the good things about Chinese culture than the bad things.
China, Chinese, are not perfect. Neither are the Japanese or the Koreans or any race for that matter. But I'm not here to dis other cultures.
It is unfortunate that the Chinese blood in you only gave you gluttony. What other blood run in you? Whatever it is it can't be good blood either cos it gave you ignorance, stupidity and bigottry.
Your knowledge of Asian history is pathetic and you cannot see beyond the tip of your nose. It is ironic that you are ashamed of your Chinese blood cos I'm sure most Chinese people will be very ashamed of you, too. -
r u trying to get personal with me?Originally posted by tvdog:Wow...
China is maybe ten times the size of Japan. It is probably about the size of Europe. So inveitably, distance leads to differences, and differences sometimes lead to conflict.
People in Guangzhou, for example, are very different from people in, say Beijing. They look different, have different statures, complexions, behave differently, wear different clothes and even eat different types of noodles. They speak dialects incomprehensible to each other. It's just like comparing different Europeans like French and Italians.
And the Europeans never stopped fighting amonst themselves either.
Compared to China, Japan is a small island nation. And they had been fighting amonst themselves for a VERY LONG time until the Meiji era or something where one Shogun (warlord) defeated and united the whole Japan. China was the same but because of her size, took a longer time to sort things out. The Koreans, erm... aren't they still separated after last fighting a war sixty years ago?
But China is one people and today, one nation again.
Chinese people have a long history of civilisation, science, culture and innovation and many other good values. It would take 100 times more pages to list the good things about Chinese culture than the bad things.
China, Chinese, are not perfect. Neither are the Japanese or the Koreans or any race for that matter. But I'm not here to dis other cultures.
It is unfortunate that the Chinese blood in you only gave you gluttony. What other blood run in you? Whatever it is it can't be good blood either cos it gave you ignorance, stupidity and bigottry.
Your knowledge of Asian history is pathetic and you cannot see beyond the tip of your nose. It is ironic that you are ashamed of your Chinese blood cos I'm sure most Chinese people will be very ashamed of you, too.
it's my opinion. if u do not like it, don't even bother about me. -
now in china there is a series movies call "bright sword"Originally posted by dragg:civil war?
didnt they combined to defend against japan?
showing this story -
The Jap is smart to break the semi alliance between Nazi Germany and Nationalist China. As a result, large cache of Nazi German Panzer tanks and 88mm Field Guns shippments did not arrive in China.
Without these heavy weaponary from Germany, the Chinese Nationalist Army, which was in the midst of a serious modernization effort, were unable to fight off the agressors.
Jap Army was not that great fighter. Any familiar with the 1939 border conflict btw Jap and Russia in Manchuria knows that the Jap were utterly defeated by the Russian armoured forces. -
Just watch how the jipoons leave beijing when they cannot break through and their lines all so thin. Just that they make themselves look very strong through bullying innocent civilians
Now japan also scared of china liao -
That's what they want you to believe.Originally posted by dragg:civil war?
didnt they combined to defend against japan?
On the surface they agreed to stop fighting with each other and fight the japanese instead.
But in reality, they still pursued their own interests. This is one area my dad and I are in disagreement.
My dad says Communists contributed a significant portion of its fighting force to lead the war effort assisting the nationalist. He said the Nationalist upper echelon weren't interested in the war and lead a life of luxury while its underling were struggling to fight the war at the front. The Nationalists were just interested in their current day comforts than long term problem of an invader at their doorsteps.
I tend to disagree with him because when the Communists and Nationalists decided to stop their Civil War, the communists were in territories AWAY from the Japanese front. History have stated that Nationalists gotta bear the brunt of the invading force AND Communist's incursions during this time.
The communists used this opportunities to take back from what the nationalists took during the Civil War. They actually fought minimally witht the japanese during the truce. This led to build up of communist during the truce and wearing of of strength for nationalists which led to the quick defeat of nationalist after end of hostilities with Japan.
My dad shot back at me saying history was biased.... duh!! like his isn't. haha -
That's what they want you to believe.
On the surface they agreed to stop fighting with each other and fight the japanese instead.
But in reality, they still pursued their own interests. This is one area my dad and I are in disagreement.
My dad says Communists contributed a significant portion of its fighting force to lead the war effort assisting the nationalist. He said the Nationalist upper echelon weren't interested in the war and lead a life of luxury while its underling were struggling to fight the war at the front. The Nationalists were just interested in their current day comforts than long term problem of an invader at their doorsteps.
I tend to disagree with him because when the Communists and Nationalists decided to stop their Civil War, the communists were in territories AWAY from the Japanese front. History have stated that Nationalists gotta bear the brunt of the invading force AND Communist's incursions during this time.
The communists used this opportunities to take back from what the nationalists took during the Civil War. They actually fought minimally witht the japanese during the truce. This led to build up of communist during the truce and wearing of of strength for nationalists which led to the quick defeat of nationalist after end of hostilities with Japan.
My dad shot back at me saying history was biased.... duh!! like his isn't. haha
i agree with ponders, indeed i watch a documentary that provide this contrary view to what is claim by most history books. communist did have minimal confrontation with the japs in fact it is claim they tend to avoid confrontation to build up their own strength and let the nationalist fight the war. chiang kia shek know this thus his vision is to eliminate the communist first than fight he japs. it is claim he believe japs doesnt have the resources to attack the south china area. unfortunately he is kidkapp. and force to work with the communist.
china is going to win the war with the japs by playing the time game. japs resources are stretch and they are dying thousands in china and finding it hard to replace the soldiers and armour destroy in battlefield.
but i wouldnt agree japs are poor soldiers. look how bravely they fought the americans in the pacific islands such as Iwo Jima and etc. thus leaving americans no choice but to drop the atomic bombs to save tens of thousands american from dying. -
Originally posted by reyes:
i totally agree with you. communist didnt contribute much to the fight and they have very few main battles with the imperial japanese army. the main fighting were done by the nationalist and just by looking at the heros of chinese in WW2, they are mostly Nationalist officers!! chiang kai shek is a great leader but the "history" produced by the communist were biased. now most people in mainland china knows the true story and begin to look at the nationalist in a very different way. i remember reading an article how beijing university students were shock to the true fighting by the nationalist when the movie "xue zan tai er zhuang" was shown in the campus. many of them later realised that it was the nationalist who were doing the fighting while the communist looting all the credits and propagenda, misleading the people!! the most shameful part was the communist collaborating with the japanese soldiers and set them free after gaining their weapons. some of those local troops recruited by the japanese soldiers even joined the communist to fight the nationalist after the WW2 and also in the korean war.
[b]That's what they want you to believe.
On the surface they agreed to stop fighting with each other and fight the japanese instead.
But in reality, they still pursued their own interests. This is one area my dad and I are in disagreement.
My dad says Communists contributed a significant portion of its fighting force to lead the war effort assisting the nationalist. He said the Nationalist upper echelon weren't interested in the war and lead a life of luxury while its underling were struggling to fight the war at the front. The Nationalists were just interested in their current day comforts than long term problem of an invader at their doorsteps.
I tend to disagree with him because when the Communists and Nationalists decided to stop their Civil War, the communists were in territories AWAY from the Japanese front. History have stated that Nationalists gotta bear the brunt of the invading force AND Communist's incursions during this time.
The communists used this opportunities to take back from what the nationalists took during the Civil War. They actually fought minimally witht the japanese during the truce. This led to build up of communist during the truce and wearing of of strength for nationalists which led to the quick defeat of nationalist after end of hostilities with Japan.
My dad shot back at me saying history was biased.... duh!! like his isn't. haha
i agree with ponders, indeed i watch a documentary that provide this contrary view to what is claim by most history books. communist did have minimal confrontation with the japs in fact it is claim they tend to avoid confrontation to build up their own strength and let the nationalist fight the war. chiang kia shek know this thus his vision is to eliminate the communist first than fight he japs. it is claim he believe japs doesnt have the resources to attack the south china area. unfortunately he is kidkapp. and force to work with the communist.
china is going to win the war with the japs by playing the time game. japs resources are stretch and they are dying thousands in china and finding it hard to replace the soldiers and armour destroy in battlefield.
but i wouldnt agree japs are poor soldiers. look how bravely they fought the americans in the pacific islands such as Iwo Jima and etc. thus leaving americans no choice but to drop the atomic bombs to save tens of thousands american from dying.
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another side note, the reason japan refused to apologise to the communist china is because the war wasnt fought with the communist but with the nationalist. they claimed to have no reason to apologise to the communist as they do not deserve it and had volunteerily given up all claims immediately after the war. -
One thing to remember was that though China suffered horrifically, Japan did not succeed in "officially" occupying China in the way they occupied Singapore and Malaysia.
In other words, China did not capitulate in the way the Brits did in Singapore or like the French (in France) etc.
Though the Japs did install a puppet regime with Puyi etc the Nationalist and Communist forces remained inside China throughout the war. Chiang-Kai Shek and Mao both remained in China throughout the war and did not flee the country. Their respective armies remained viable (but weak) fighting forces throughout the war. -
Japanese are over-rated simply because the victories that they won in early part of the war is due to:
1) lack of determinations from the Chinese Nationalist armies. The Chinese generals were more inclinded to enter into a peace treaty with Jap just like the Song Dynasty sue for peace with the Northern Liao Kingom / Jin Kingdom.
2) Nationalist armies did not view Jap as their top enemies. They hated the Chinese communists more than the Jap.
3) Nationalist armies are very poorly armed. The tactics were mostly world war I tactics involving Static Defences in trenches, mass infantry charges. Their lack of modern arms eg tanks, anti-tank guns and even rapid fire machine guns had greatly affect the fighting capability against the Jap.
4) Jap early success in Pacific War is due to the pre-occupied european colonial masters were busy fighting for the survival back home against Germany. The British, french and Dutch armed forces were all tied up in Europe. Thus, the British did not even bother to reinforce the Singapore /Malaya as they could only spare 2 battleships to SE Asia. No tanks no top-of-line Spitefire / Hurricane from British India.
5) In the 1939 Manchurian- Mongolian border conflicts, the Jap armed forces elite troops (Guan Dong Jun) was defeated by the Russian Red Armies, even the Jap had threw in their best Zero Fighters to provide air cover.
6) Throughout the occupation of Singapore / Malaya, the Jap Imperial Armies did not managed to root out the Malaya Communist Ant-Jap Armies in the Peninsula. In fact, the resistances were controlling most of the rural area and Jap control was mainly confined to huge urban area.
7) Jap armies did not managed to chase the British out of India, as the British was well established in the India. The British had a large army and a air force in India. -
please don't flame me for this...
but there are many stories "commonly believed" by the masses in Rape of Nanking that 100% of atrocities are done by the Japanese Army.
I did read a more critical article elsewhere about researchers looking into Iris Chiangs books and other chinese history book.
They said that while Japanese Army did do some atrocities, the chinese side (both Nationalist and Communists) had their fair share.
There are areas in China during that time where Japanese army had to protect the civilians from the Chinese.
The Japanese had to evacuate the villagers and Japanese army had to escort them out. Photopgraphs taken during these times were then used to mislead people that japanese army were escorting them to their deaths.
Such cases are where that locality either are pro-japanese or live in such poverty that Japanese are supplying them with food more so during the Civil war time. Why the Chinese are doing harm to them is more for "teaching them a lesson" or making them submit to their ideology.
The communist and nationalist armies also plunder their locals for supplies.
No one i have told believe in me and some actually got disgusted that i was defending the Japanese.
For me, i am defending facts. Well, there is little or little support for what I have read, I also tend to believe the the current belief in Rape of Nanking is also done by overrating the atrocities done. -
It is well recorded that the Nationalists brutally murdered as many Chinese civilians as did the Japs.Originally posted by Ponders:please don't flame me for this.........
The communist and nationalist armies also plunder their locals for supplies.
No one i have told believe in me and some actually got disgusted that i was defending the Japanese.
For me, i am defending facts. Well, there is little or little support for what I have read, I also tend to believe the the current belief in Rape of Nanking is also done by overrating the atrocities done.
The Nationalists murdered many thousands of Communists and Jap sympathisers. The Communists murdered Nationalist and Jap sympathisers.
But for some funny reason, human beings tend to be less forgiving of the atrocities perpetuated by foreigners.
For example, when a Singaporean murders another Singaporean, it is a terrible crime, tough...
But if for example, a Thai construction worker murders a Singaporean, then there'll be a much bigger hooha. -
yup, while it is well recorded,
i am just disturbed by those "historians" who pushes their own agenda than telling facts.
Some people, for the sake of just wanting people believe that Rape of Nanking is horrible...
they will just take any horrible historical picture and say "the jap did that"!!
That's misleading people.
One example is the one that i mentioned in the earlier post.
The late Iris Chang used that Japanese escorting a local to safety picture and said instead that the Japanese soldier is escorting her to her death!!!