Is Mi-24 Hind A Good Substitute For The Apache?
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Assuming Singapore could not or did not want to get the Apache chopper from America, would it be a good/wise move to purchase the Mi-24 Hind Helicopter from the Russians? (Assuming all the helicopters would be delivered in immaculate condition and there would be no problem in training pilots and spare parts supply and maintenance. Assuming Russia would allow SAF to use its training grounds for training uses also.)
For those who might not know what the Mi-24 Hind Helicopter is, it is the huge Russian helicopter that appeared in both the Rambo 2 and Rambo 3 movies and in the movie was flown by the Russians to try to destroy Rambo and also the Afghan resistance fighters in Rambo 3.
If I am correct, it is the worlds fastest and largest attack helicopter and carries a formidable assortment of rockets, missiles and guns.
For those who know the Apahce and/or the Mi-24 Hind very well, which one would be the better overall? I do not know much about both choppers but know that the Apache has very strong armour and night vision. Does the Mi-24 Hind have these features too and so are they as good as or even better than the Apache?
One advantage the Mi-24 Hind would have over the Apache is probably faster speed.
For those who are knowledgable please comment.
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Nahz, I would take the Hokum
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it wld b great if someone can enlighten us wif the tech the hind has...
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The russian ones are tougher and sturdier in desert warfare..apache needs heaps of maintenance when deploying in desert
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no wonder for its desert camo...Originally posted by LRRP:The russian ones are tougher and sturdier in desert warfare..apache needs heaps of maintenance when deploying in desert -
Yeah, loved the Hind. armoured, fast, heavily armed and can carry a basic squad. But quality wise, not that great... as usual short engine life. The East German's Hind were said to vibrate like hell when pushed, so the speed wise not as advertised. But it's true that it required less maintanience between missions than the Apache.
On another note, If licence to China.. well I do see a potential in Singapore. China does built those russian stuff with better quality, then upgrade them with ST avionics and counter measures. WaLA... a different animal.
It will scare the hell out of any infantry facing it. -
on the other hand , i am not the pilot and maintenance crew. Its left to them to decide. MAybe the the rsaf pilot and crew feel more all round assurance with apache than the hind.
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Their roles are different... but do you know that both are about the same size ? The Hind is just slightly bigger. But you can actually config the hind for anti tank and anti ship role too, plus hind is great for COIN.
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pardon me....Originally posted by MobyDog:Their roles are different... but do you know that both are about the same size ? The Hind is just slightly bigger. But you can actually config the hind for anti tank and anti ship role too, plus hind is great for COIN.
wat is coin? -
COIN= CounterInsurgencyOriginally posted by alwaysdisturbed:pardon me....
wat is coin?
COINtel= CounterIntelligence. -
One very important factor is the cost of the Hind and the Apahce.
If the Hind is substantially cheaper than the Apache, then perhaps the Hind might be more VFM (Value For Money). -
COIN = US speak for Counter Insurgency.
Apparetly US COIN policy is to drop a JDAM on any house a 'suspected' terrorist is seen to have entered.
Btw, why is the Hind better for COIN? Better able to take hits? -
The Apache is a dedicated attack helicopter. It is newer and far more advance than the Hind. Most western oriented countries use seperate attack and transport helicopter types.
The Hind was developed as both an attack helicopter and a transport helicopter. It can carry a section of troops but is less maneuverable when compared to dedicated attack helicopters.
In COIN ops - the Hind would attack its objectives before landing and deploying its troops.
A better subsitute for the Apache would be Eurocopter's Tiger.
More about the Hind -
http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Rotary/Hind/HE18.htm -
Why Hind?
If don't want Apache got so many other choices. And someone already mentioned Hokum.
The Hind is a very old design, though there are new upgrades, I think one version is even called by a new number, Mi-35, bought by Indonesia. (Hind is Mi-24, right?) -
the Mi-24 imo isn't a good choice for COIN since its hovering potential is limited, due to its large 'wings' or weapon pylons
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isn't mi 35 a transport heli?Originally posted by tvdog:Why Hind?
If don't want Apache got so many other choices. And someone already mentioned Hokum.
The Hind is a very old design, though there are new upgrades, I think one version is even called by a new number, Mi-35, bought by Indonesia. (Hind is Mi-24, right?)
sg already hv lotsa transport heli... -
The Apache is initially designed to be a dedicated tank killer to attack the Soviet tank columns that never came during the Cold War. While the Hind is build like a flying tank/APC. It is heavily armoured and can fire quite a range of weapons. It also have the capability to carry infantrymen. You can also see this in the newer Merkeva where a MBT is used to ferry a small number of troops, just that the Hind flies as well. Being a jack of all trades have its price,it lack agility in flight due to its weight.
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Why COIN ? well, because the MI-24 is very heavily armoured, armed and mean looking. Can you imagine this monster coming down at you fully loaded and armed with a 30mm auto-canon. It has so much fire-power, that one could destroy a small town.
The Iraqi's pilots were so confident that they would come right infront a bunch of Ragheads armed with AK47 and RPGs, just to provide access to a village who tried to killed Saddam. The same village which the US Iraqi puppet are putting saddam on trail for.
Which other helicopters do you think can withstand such an abuse ? The apache is just too expensive and somewhat delicated. -
Yep, the Mi-35 is a transport helicopter alright - a very very heavily-armed, heavily-armoured transport helicopter. My choice over RSAF Super Pumas anyday.Originally posted by alwaysdisturbed:isn't mi 35 a transport heli?
sg already hv lotsa transport heli...
The Mi-35 is the export versions of the Mi-24 HIND E or HIND F but with slightly downgraded avionics. Has a twin barrel 23-mm gun.
Following is a list of the different HIND versions:
# Mi-24D/HIND D: Direct air support.
# Mi-24V/HIND E: Direct air support. Most proliferated version.
# Mi-24P/HIND F: Direct air support. The fixed twin gun cut the turret profile, and empty weight to 8,200 kg, while boosting maximum gross weight to 12,000 kg.
# Mi-24R/HIND G-1: NBC sampling. It has mechanisms to obtain soil and air samples, filter air, and place marker flares.
# Mi-24K/HIND G-2: Photo-recon, and artillery spotting. Has a camera in cabin, gun, rocket pods, but no targeting system.
# Mi-25: Export version of the HIND D.
# Mi-35: Export version of the HIND E. The Mi-35M has a twin barrel 23-mm gun.
# Mi-35P: Export version of the HIND F -
Would pick the Cougar over the Mi-24 Hind. The impression of the large Hind chopper is that its very unmanuverable.
**Just a question, is it vulnerable like the BlackHawk? I doubt it would have been able to evade them which the BlackHawk failed to do in Somalia.** -
The Hind-D was known as the "Devil's Chariot" to the mudjahideens during the Afghan war. They were scared stiff by the first appearance of this beast...LOL
Problem with this helo is that there is a rotor issue with it. Also, its highly unmanoeuverable as compared to the Apache. Even a Little Bird can fly circles around it. There was speculation during the Cold War of the possible scenario of a helo dogfight between the American Apache and the then-Soviet Hind-D. The Apache will of cos' emerge the winner in most of the scenarios. I think the Hokum would be a better match...
Even if we use the Hind for COIN, it can still be bushwhacked easily. Mudjahideens would regularly bait the Hind to fly in-between valleys where they would fire steel cables at the rotors, fire lotsa RPGs from the top-down, or a combination of both and a variety of other techniques. In the S.E. Asian scenario, guerillas can string explosives at potential LZs when the Hind comes to insert troops, or hide in spider holes with Iglas or any other portable SAMs, RPGs or just plain LAWs..wait until it passes over and away from you and then take a tail-end shot...
The Apache can do an inverted roll, as can the Little Bird. The Hind-D will just fall flat upside-down like a grand piano dropped from a height, with its legs standing up..
My 0.02 cents... -
BTW, Your scenario would apply to any copters in the world. And I would rather be on a HIND in these situations you describe...Originally posted by Tango1:Even if we use the Hind for COIN, it can still be bushwhacked easily. Mudjahideens would regularly bait the Hind to fly in-between valleys where they would fire steel cables at the rotors, fire lotsa RPGs from the top-down, or a combination of both and a variety of other techniques. In the S.E. Asian scenario, guerillas can string explosives at potential LZs when the Hind comes to insert troops, or hide in spider holes with Iglas or any other portable SAMs, RPGs or just plain LAWs..wait until it passes over and away from you and then take a tail-end shot... -
IMO, RSAF should consider Cobra as an alternate option..
It can buy Bell AH-1Z Viper.. -
is anyone even considering politics as a major decision maker?
if not, i'll ask this. Anyone considered maintenance costs too? Or the ability of the aircraft to upgrade their avionics systems? Will the location of Singapore affect the lifespan of the chopper? Are the parts cheap? Can it take a certain grade of fuel only available on ships IF it has to engage in shipborne activities? How often do the parts have to be changed? Are the engines upgradable? Is it compatible with the engine oil we have now? There are many other questions... -
Think Apache is a white elephant it was reported in Iraqi when 31 apahce tried to attack an iraqi column 30 of them were hit and one was downed. It was the A10 warthog that came to their rescue. Did RSAF make a big mistake ?