Is the AR15/M16 Family of Weapons Obsolete?
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Not quite. Remember, the sights/optics and barrel are attached to the upper receiver and are fixed in relation to each other.Originally posted by specfore:Accuracy of the M16... this was probably the more significant fault compared to other assault rifles. The M16 was built to be able to disassemble easily. The 2 big retaining pins holding the barrel assembly to the trigger assembly and butt are the key components that would dictate whether your zeroing is OK or not. If the pins are fitted loosely, how much zeroing you do will be useless. At long ranges , more than 150m... a small zero error will mean a missed shot.
I can conceivably see how a loose-fitting lower receiver and/or buttstock might throw your aim off if it shifts during the critical trigger squeeze, but pressing the entire rifle into your body during the trigger pull should eliminate most if not all of the play between the lower and upper receivers.
Almost all of the ARs I've come across (including the ones that I build) have some amount of play between the lower and upper receivers, due to variances in manufacturing tolerances. It's just a question of how much. Most of the play can be eliminated by installing a rubber shim like the AccuWedge under the rear take-down pin lug in the lower receiver.
The prevalence of AR-platform rifles in Highpower competition in the US points to its tremendous accuracy potential. The most important factor in realizing this potential is the use of correct ammo. Commercial and military-surplus ammo are mass-produced and variances in the manufacturing process (oftentimes accompanied by poor quality control) make them shoot inconsistently. Given the right handloaded ammo, it is not unusual for an AR-type rifle to achieve this kind of accuracy at 200 yards:
That target, by the way, was achieved with this particular AR:
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i like both sar21 and ar15 for varying reasons.
sar21 because it's easier to use, but has this toy feel
ar15 is more straight to the point, raw feel. -
hahah eh... yopu think only SAF teach combat zeroing meh.... come on la.. I'm in NCC laaa.... CLT now... they wanted to have combat zeroing so i mah go and do la... i do that time is at ngee soon camp some more got one grp of REC beside us... they teach everyone together.... wah lau.. come on la... but firing is fun la.... live one i'm talking abt..
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Problem with the M16 is the gas gets blow back into the bolt carrier and in the bolt you get harderend crystallized carbon which is not easy to remove ! and also, with the amount of heat generated in close bolt !IN sustain full auto firing, it would generate more jam!
a piston based M16 like the Heckler and Koch M416
http://www.hkdefense.us/pages/military-le/rifles-carbines/hk416.html
would resolve the whole issues ! HK 416 also have several imrpovements like a more solidly built magazine, a new buffer, Since HK is not selling the M416 to civilian here in the US! I am thinking of buying another M16 improvement .
http://www.pof-usa.com/P-416/P-416pricelist.htm
M16 is a good platform and weapon system! It needs some improvemnet to make it better! it will work with what it is, but in the field, a piston based M16 would be much easier to maintain! Just like an AK with the accuracy and erganomics which is 2nd to none!
DaveC! -
Oh, ur a CLT ah? HMmm do they teach u all IA drills under the NCC courses? What are u supposed to do when rifle jams?Originally posted by Cpt.ZR:hahah eh... yopu think only SAF teach combat zeroing meh.... come on la.. I'm in NCC laaa.... CLT now... they wanted to have combat zeroing so i mah go and do la... i do that time is at ngee soon camp some more got one grp of REC beside us... they teach everyone together.... wah lau.. come on la... but firing is fun la.... live one i'm talking abt.. -
NCC ? Wow wow .......... big toad !!!Originally posted by Cpt.ZR:hahah eh... yopu think only SAF teach combat zeroing meh.... come on la.. I'm in NCC laaa.... CLT now... they wanted to have combat zeroing so i mah go and do la... i do that time is at ngee soon camp some more got one grp of REC beside us... they teach everyone together.... wah lau.. come on la... but firing is fun la.... live one i'm talking abt..
Just because you big toad shoot one range and happen some recurit join you so big toad already right.
But bet they did not tell you the rest of the different type of range or shooting class, that the SAF did not bored to show or let you join right. -
Ha ha ha... my young friend, who do you think the people who taught you the combat zeroing are from? They aren't from the Amnesty International. And who do you think the range belonged too.Originally posted by Cpt.ZR:hahah eh... yopu think only SAF teach combat zeroing meh.... come on la.. I'm in NCC laaa.... CLT now... they wanted to have combat zeroing so i mah go and do la... i do that time is at ngee soon camp some more got one grp of REC beside us... they teach everyone together.... wah lau.. come on la... but firing is fun la.... live one i'm talking abt..
I was in NCC many years ago, so don't mine me when I say, go thru NS, then we talk. Preferably in a combat vocation in a guards, infantry, commando, armour unit. -
Lol.. talk after u enlist. By the time u do, i'm one third thru my 10 yr cycle.Originally posted by Cpt.ZR:hahah eh... yopu think only SAF teach combat zeroing meh.... come on la.. I'm in NCC laaa.... CLT now... they wanted to have combat zeroing so i mah go and do la... i do that time is at ngee soon camp some more got one grp of REC beside us... they teach everyone together.... wah lau.. come on la... but firing is fun la.... live one i'm talking abt..
CLT = cadet Lt. Lol.. so wat? Nv been thru combat training..... :p
Weapon Spec me.. :p
Cleared all range. Got a double rifle cross on me upper left arm!
ORD MooDz~
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ya try teach you to solve the rifle problems.. THey teach many things in there they teach you how to strip this and do this do that... will its good la... in a sense that you will know what to do.... but.... now M16 only avaliable to tekong alrdy so... not really of a use... la
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(US Government) seeks to reduce the overall weight of typical
7.62mm caliber ammunition by at least 20% without reducing current performance,reliability, or operating conditions.---FBO notice dated
12/13/2005.Solicitation No. W15QKN-06-R-0251 .
2.The U.S Government National Small Arms Center (NSAC) solicits the members of
the National Small Arms Technology Consortium (NSATC) and Welcomes applications
for new members, for proposals for a requirement in one or more Small Arms,
Eight Technology Areas which were identified to imporve the ability of the
soldier to execute his tasks.
W15QKN-06-R-0250
FedBizOpps notice Date: 2005-11-18 -
Ye only did simple field stripping which isn't much.Originally posted by Cpt.ZR:ya try teach you to solve the rifle problems.. THey teach many things in there they teach you how to strip this and do this do that... will its good la... in a sense that you will know what to do.... but.... now M16 only avaliable to tekong alrdy so... not really of a use... la
Ummm... M16 tekong only ah? I using still. Nv offered SAR 21 conversion course. I think because my camp is a support maintenance battalion. -
Thought that Support & Maintenance units are using the AR-15? My former tutor in Ports Down camp as a technician was telling me that they used the SAR-80/88 even!
Anyway, think that the M16 is really versatile. Compared to the Ak, which is built for ruggedness, the M16 is basically built for precision and light weight. Biggest thing I like about the M16? Uer Ergonomics and also wide range of equipment available for it. -
My fren, you're taking a beating here, I really suggest you wait till you enter the army.Originally posted by Cpt.ZR:ya try teach you to solve the rifle problems.. THey teach many things in there they teach you how to strip this and do this do that... will its good la... in a sense that you will know what to do.... but.... now M16 only avaliable to tekong alrdy so... not really of a use... la
There are still quite a few reservist combat units using the good ole M16 in the SAF. It'll take a while to replace them all. Heck a lot of the current units still use the M16/M203 combination as well. -
Agreed. But given the choice between the M16/M203 or the SAR-21/M203, would pick the M16/M203 combo any day.Originally posted by insouciant:My fren, you're taking a beating here, I really suggest you wait till you enter the army.
There are still quite a few reservist combat units using the good ole M16 in the SAF. It'll take a while to replace them all. Heck a lot of the current units still use the M16/M203 combination as well. -
http://world.guns.ru/main-e.htm
everything you need to know about guns -
aiya, maybe we dun condemn the sar-21 m203 yet lar, maybe there is hope? Who knows, some of u might swear by it in the near future. lol!
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Yeah, give me the carbine with a scope over the SAR and its scope and LAD any day.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Agreed. But given the choice between the M16/M203 or the SAR-21/M203, would pick the M16/M203 combo any day. -
Perhaps. But the SAR21 does have quite a few issues to fix. When that day comes I suppose.Originally posted by Shotgun:aiya, maybe we dun condemn the sar-21 m203 yet lar, maybe there is hope? Who knows, some of u might swear by it in the near future. lol!
Really hope someone comes up with a better quadrant sight for the M203. One that is accurate and doesn't keep poking painfully into your back everything you sling it across your back. -
Well, maybe our expectations on the SAR21 is too high.However, I feel that the given alittle more time and chance for improvement. The M16/AR15 in its early years in Vietnam also has its problems doesn't it?
So with time, comes improvement...hopefully -
Why the condemn over NCC?
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Ha ha ha... NCC has its place in preparing boys for NS.
But it does get a tad irritating when someone who has only experienced the very limited military exposure that NCC gives pretend that he is a military "lao jiao".
I went thru NCC too when I was a lot younger, even going for the parachute course, etc. But it is no where close to being in a combat unit during NS and reservist. Heck it would be the same if I pretended to brag about how much I know about spec force ops when the cloest I have been is as a recce trooper.
Sorry guv, I know NCC seems like a lot to you right now, but take it from me, it isn't. -
I guess we are just comparing the SAR21 against the M16/AR15 and have found it wanting. Yeah, it is in the early days, and with fingers crossed the SAR21 will be improved sufficiently to find its place in the hearts of NSmen or the world market.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Well, maybe our expectations on the SAR21 is too high.However, I feel that the given alittle more time and chance for improvement. The M16/AR15 in its early years in Vietnam also has its problems doesn't it?
So with time, comes improvement...hopefully
But somehow I don't think they'll be able to reduce the weight much tho.
But by the time they do, my reservist commitments will probably be over.
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The AR15 & M16 are virtually identical. But I always had the impression that the AR15 had a minor difference in that it did not have the Forward Assist feature available on the M16.
Can anyone verify this for me? -
Yes you are right.The metallurgy is different.Do take a look at the rate of carrying handle corrosion between the M16S1 and the original AR-15 from Colt Firearms.The metal feels different and is much more long-lasting.Originally posted by Quirinus:The AR15 & M16 are virtually identical. But I always had the impression that the AR15 had a minor difference in that it did not have the Forward Assist feature available on the M16.
Can anyone verify this for me?
The corrosion there is something operators need to take note of.You should also take note of the metal plate holding the heatguard together, make sure that there is no backlash from time to time.
Another important area to perform regular checks is the cartridge headspace entry-way.Your armourer should perform this check if you have a lot of IAs and there is nothing wrong with the barrel rifling or the firing mechanism.This will ensure that the spacing is not worn-out and force a tumble in the ballistics of the bullet or jam.