USS Nimitz Vs Japanese Pearl Harbor Strike Force
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Hmm... i think if the Nimtz and the IJN see each other at the same time it will be a draw.
The Nimtz can strike quickly at all the Aircraft carrier and try retreating towards Pearl Harbour so as to alert the Navy.
In the end, maybe both fleets (most of the Jap Carriers + Nimtz) get destroyed, since the IJN had numerical superiorty, but the events that happened afterwards would never happen, right?
The US would have 100% of their Battleships and Carriers of WWII and the IJN would have lost more than 50% of their strike capability.
It would be a easy defense of the phillipines as MacAuthur's plan Orange would have succeded and Japan might had been brought to surrender sooner. -
[quote]Originally posted by MobyDog:
[b]Wa Lan ..aaaa. Please consider the scenario...
3) Each F-14 has Max 4 AMRAAMS, 4 sidewider each.
If you have seen the Movie " Final countdown" you will notice that the two F-14 took about 5 to 10 mins to shoot down 2 Zeros. The Zeros have better Maneuverabilities and were shot down with 1 sidewinder and the other with cannon.
Each Cold War Tomcat can carry up to 6 Phoenixes and 2 Sidewinders. AMRAAMS were unheard of that time.
In the movie,the F-14s didnt take 5-10 mins to shoot them down.They were playing cat and mouse until the Nimitz CO gave the order to shoot the Japs after the latter had machine gunned the US civilian yacht. -
Pls check up all your fact first before you talk cock !!!Originally posted by MobyDog:Wa Lan ..aaaa. Please consider the scenario...
1) The lone 1970S CVN and 1941 Jap fleet detect each other at the same time.
2) There are 300+ zeros in the air vs less than about gradual increase of about 30 F-14 in an hour.
3) Each F-14 has Max 4 AMRAAMS, 4 sidewider each.
If you have seen the Movie " Final countdown" you will notice that the two F-14 took about 5 to 10 mins to shoot down 2 Zeros. The Zeros have better Maneuverabilities and were shot down with 1 sidewinder and the other with cannon.
Of course they do... they are technologically more advance.. but there is substance in quantity vs quality. Flying in congested airspace leads to collisions and lucky shots etc. The Japs simply have to get afew bombs onto the deck of the CVN.. and its mission killed.. is sunk. OR long enough for their estroyers 16" guns with 40 mile range to pound the CVN. The CVN can outrun them, but the Jap fighters can reload at any of the 6 carriers and torpedo the CVN. You can even sink all the Jap carriers, yet their escort ships will chase the burning CVN down. BTW, WWII ships are very armoured, it takes many harpoons to sink one, if you can launch any or have any left or any platform to launch them, since you can't launch aircraft from a burning CVN.
Note : Under normal circumstances, the CVN with advance radar and weapons will win. I don't deny this facts..
First you are totally wrong ! Watch movie also can see till so wrongly no wonder you got all you military facts also wrong !
Movie- final countdown - First in the movie japan fleet is was launch to attack pearl harbour , they never even know the CNV was ever there ! So how can you keep saying the jap fleet detected the CNV ? You change the script is it ?
Next the F-14s was ask to play with the zeros first, and wait for command, that why they took their time (they did not have the shoot order yet), when the command was given the zero was instantly splashed.
See movie also don't know how to see come here talk cock ! go see your movie again than say. !
In real fact . A carrier can launch planes very fast . The 1985 Achille Lauro affair - more then 7 F-14s was launch to intercept a hijacked airliner.
Pls refer to howstuff works. When the crew is in full swing, it can launch or land a plane every 25 seconds -- that time the carrier have at least 30 x a-7 and 14 x F-14 . At the rate of the slow speed of zeros, with CVN radar, the whole damn flight wing would have been up in the air already , 1/2 way waiting.
By the way A-7 is the replace for skyhawk for carriers , they have guns and capable of air to air .
For dumb folk sake, most zeros in are bombers and toperdo planes, they are fully load and not fly like what you dream of that type of zero interceptors. -
Even the A-6 Intruder can carry 2 sidewinders.Originally posted by storywolf:By the way A-7 is the replace for skyhawk for carriers , they have guns and capable of air to air .
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Originally posted by Marco_Simone:
a little quiz...
[b]Heard of the show "The Final Countdown"? Link is here http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080736/
6 aircraft carriers carrying around 420 aircraft(140 Zero fighters,140 Val dive bombers,140 Kate torpedo bombers)
2 battleships
2 heavy cruisers
1 light cruisers
11 destroyers
Name the 6 aircraft carrier of the imperial Japanese Navy? -
Akagi,Kaga,Hiryu,Soryu,Shokaku,ZuikakuOriginally posted by I_am_PeTe_Parker:a little quiz...
Name the 6 aircraft carrier of the imperial Japanese Navy? -
Mobydog,
In real the CVN would not need to due with 300 planes at on shot, But only 1/2 of them, but 2 wave . That make the job more easier.
But if you chose to fly 300+ of them at once, you will be worshipped as the bloody military genius that destory 1/2 of japanese planes before they even reach the cvn. Because only a fool would ask planes at stay around burn up all the fuel waiting for number 300th planes to be in the air to form formation.
That is why the jap commander was not u, and did the right thing, he launch his planes, when 1/2 of them is up they form the 1 wave and go. The rest launch will form another wave , which is the 2nd wave. Note: from this history, notice that the 2nd wave is 1 hr behind the 1st wave, that is how much time it take to form a 100+ plane fomation !
7:55am - 1st wave of 183 Japanese planes led by Fuchida attack Pearl from NW
9:00am - 2nd wave of 167 Japanese planes led by Shimazaki attack Pearl from NE -
First of all, the tomcats chose to engage with guns and sidewinders just to show off. That was cos they needed to VID the zeros before engaging. Now, if they had engaged with BVRAAMs, missiles that fly at mach 3-4, I don't think the Zeros stand a chance.Originally posted by MobyDog:Wa Lan ..aaaa. Please consider the scenario...
1) The lone 1970S CVN and 1941 Jap fleet detect each other at the same time.
2) There are 300+ zeros in the air vs less than about gradual increase of about 30 F-14 in an hour.
3) Each F-14 has Max 4 AMRAAMS, 4 sidewider each.
If you have seen the Movie " Final countdown" you will notice that the two F-14 took about 5 to 10 mins to shoot down 2 Zeros. The Zeros have better Maneuverabilities and were shot down with 1 sidewinder and the other with cannon.
Of course they do... they are technologically more advance.. but there is substance in quantity vs quality. Flying in congested airspace leads to collisions and lucky shots etc. The Japs simply have to get afew bombs onto the deck of the CVN.. and its mission killed.. is sunk. OR long enough for their estroyers 16" guns with 40 mile range to pound the CVN. The CVN can outrun them, but the Jap fighters can reload at any of the 6 carriers and torpedo the CVN. You can even sink all the Jap carriers, yet their escort ships will chase the burning CVN down. BTW, WWII ships are very armoured, it takes many harpoons to sink one, if you can launch any or have any left or any platform to launch them, since you can't launch aircraft from a burning CVN.
Note : Under normal circumstances, the CVN with advance radar and weapons will win. I don't deny this facts..
Second of all, the Nimitz has the element of surprise. The IJN fleet didn't know where the nimitz was, but the nimitz knew where the IJN fleet was. Even without radar, they still had their HISTORY books.
Third. The Japanese fleet was targetting PEARL harbor. They just had to send their Tomcats to splash the airborne fighters, preferably ONLY targetting their KATES and torpedo bombers. A 2nd group consisting of strike fighters like the A-6 can fly in and target SPECIFICALLY the japanese carriers with STAND OFF missiles.
1 ONE blow, the IJN carriers would be OUT of commission, and many of their fighters shot down.
And what advantage does the Jet fighter have over the prop bird? The ability turn and BURN. If a jet finds a prop bird on his tail, or caught in a close knife fight, he can simply pull up, and punch his burners. 2 MOST important thing in air combat... ALTITUDE and AIRSPEED. Both are to the tomcat's advantage.
But like i said... they wouldnt press in for a Dogfight in the first place. The CVN's fighters would simply hang around at BVR and f-pole the jap fighters. Out of AAMs? Land, reload.
War-time / emergency operations would sometimes result in desperate measures, such as loading live ordinance and fuel into hot birds. -
storywolf & Shotgun,
But if you chose to fly 300+ of them at once, you will be worshipped as the bloody military genius that destory 1/2 of japanese planes before they even reach the cvn.
Thank you, so you agree, that the Japs can reach the CVNs, half the strike force some more.
Both of you, are impossible... not even objective. I already told you my assumption is that both opponents detect each other at the same time !
I have given you real war time CVNs performance facts from the Serbian Conflict. The Japanese were able to launch 183 palnes in just 15 mins in the first wave.
Lastly, I have all along concede that the CVN will prevail... get a life .. stop trolling.
Marco_Simone,
You are right ... F-14s do carry 6 Phoenixes and 2 Sidewinders in that era... -
Originally posted by MobyDog:
I did not agree with you the Japs can reach the CVNs at all. What I am saying if base on your assumption that you have 300+ planes trying to be together, by the time they form formation and fly 1/2 way, 1/2 of them will already drop into the sea already.
[b]storywolf & Shotgun,
Thank you, so you agree, that the Japs can reach the CVNs, half the strike force some more.
Both of you, are impossible... not even objective. I already told you my assumption is that both opponents detect each other at the same time !
I have given you real war time CVNs performance facts from the Serbian Conflict. The Japanese were able to launch 183 palnes in just 15 mins in the first wave.
Lastly, I have all along concede that the CVN will prevail... get a life .. stop trolling.
Marco_Simone,
You are right ... F-14s do carry 6 Phoenixes and 2 Sidewinders in that era...[/b]
You only left 100+ planes in the air which is not much of left for the F-14s & F-7 to intercept 1/2 way. By breaking up and harassment, we just need to shot down some, and harass the rest. Soon non of your planes can even got fuel to reach the CVN !
By the way launching planes in 15 mins mean only launching planes !!! Forming formation is another thing. Planes once launch have to circle and gain height and find their own section and get into place, that too much time for 300+ planes. which is too fuel consumption.
Pls provide link to the support your so call Serbian Conflict figures ! For Serbian Conflict , there is a lot of factors that affect the carrier sorties effectivess. One is the operation theater is long range patrol and bombing ( which is totally different from interception) , which is partly the lack of range of the F-18s. -
Originally posted by storywolf:
I think you have not tried catching chickens in a barn. A2A missles do not have 100% like rate, in those days, apart from the pheonix (BVR), you need to paint your target first.
I did not agree with you the Japs can reach the CVNs at all. What I am saying if base on your assumption that you have 300+ planes trying to be together, by the time they form formation and fly 1/2 way, 1/2 of them will already drop into the sea already.
You only left 100+ planes in the air which is not much of left for the F-14s & F-7 to intercept 1/2 way. By breaking up and harassment, we just need to shot down some, and harass the rest. Soon non of your planes can even got fuel to reach the CVN !By the way launching planes in 15 mins mean only launching planes !!! Forming formation is another thing. Planes once launch have to circle and gain height and find their own section and get into place, that too much time for 300+ planes. which is too fuel consumption.
Why should they get into a formation for ?Pls provide link to the support your so call Serbian Conflict figures !
This I have to find the article first.. it's a long time ago. -
Prop planes dont burn so much fuel. And since they dont even need after burner to get off the deck.Originally posted by storywolf:I did not agree with you the Japs can reach the CVNs at all. What I am saying if base on your assumption that you have 300+ planes trying to be together, by the time they form formation and fly 1/2 way, 1/2 of them will already drop into the sea already.
You only left 100+ planes in the air which is not much of left for the F-14s & F-7 to intercept 1/2 way. By breaking up and harassment, we just need to shot down some, and harass the rest. Soon non of your planes can even got fuel to reach the CVN !
By the way launching planes in 15 mins mean only launching planes !!! Forming formation is another thing. Planes once launch have to circle and gain height and find their own section and get into place, that too much time for 300+ planes. which is too fuel consumption.
Pls provide link to the support your so call Serbian Conflict figures ! For Serbian Conflict , there is a lot of factors that affect the carrier sorties effectivess. One is the operation theater is long range patrol and bombing ( which is totally different from interception) , which is partly the lack of range of the F-18s.
Those old straight deck carriers launch planes in waves of like 20-40. Given the Japs had 6 carriers that's like 120-240 per wave. Given 1hr between waves it is pretty deadly. The CVN on it's on is a sitting duck. There aint enough fighters to go around.
Let's say 24 tomcats with 4 AIm-54's each. with a failure rate of 1 in 8. That's a failure of what? 12 missles? The Aim-9's shld have a higher failure rate given the heat given out by the prop planes arent all that great. So i'll give 1 in 5. With 4 each plane that's 20 failures.
Throwing up the 24 A7's with say 6 sidewinders a piece. You get around 25 failures? Now you're not going to be able to put up every single fighter hence you'd be reduced to just a few. Let's say 50% up at anyone time. The japs are still going to get a few planes through.And a few lucky hits are all you'd need. Considering CVN's hardly have armour.
The japs will get mauled but the CVN is going down! -
I fantasize the CIWS systems on the Nimitz shreding those jap prop-planes that do manage to get pass the CAP.
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Like I said, no chance the prop birds will get passed.
Not all missiles fail so miserably. And against prop planes, the hit rate of the missiles is guaranteed.
The zeros, bettys and kates simply do not have radar warning recievers to tell them that BVR missiles are aiming at them and that they need to take evasive action. They will be swatted like flies, even against missiles like the Sparrow. -
the japs made their own version of final countdown in the story ZIPANG where one of their Aegis cruiser went thru time and ended in the WWII era.
there are comics and DVD anime around. i have been collecting the comics. very very good drawings and accurate replication of the war machines.
some pics here:
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Bad example - officials sure can catch the chickens in the barns on Ubin. You don't need a 100% rate, you just need to hit some and frighten the shit out of sum and make some blur like sotong !Originally posted by MobyDog:I think you have not tried catching chickens in a barn. A2A missles do not have 100% like rate, in those days, apart from the pheonix (BVR), you need to paint your target first.
Why should they get into a formation for ?
Why they get into a formation ? That the simple knowledge of aviation ! That is something we learn from birds why birds all fly in formation ? That apply to cycling competition. Think about it , i give you a clue - it have to do with air drag thus ensure super fuel (energy) saving which is basic.
Secondary is for protection. -
You may be surprise that prop planes may not be that fuel efficient as you think, if not a lot of airlines would be using prop then jet - if travel the same distance.Originally posted by |-|05|:Prop planes dont burn so much fuel. And since they dont even need after burner to get off the deck.
Those old straight deck carriers launch planes in waves of like 20-40. Given the Japs had 6 carriers that's like 120-240 per wave. Given 1hr between waves it is pretty deadly. The CVN on it's on is a sitting duck. There aint enough fighters to go around.
Let's say 24 tomcats with 4 AIm-54's each. with a failure rate of 1 in 8. That's a failure of what? 12 missles? The Aim-9's shld have a higher failure rate given the heat given out by the prop planes arent all that great. So i'll give 1 in 5. With 4 each plane that's 20 failures.
Throwing up the 24 A7's with say 6 sidewinders a piece. You get around 25 failures? Now you're not going to be able to put up every single fighter hence you'd be reduced to just a few. Let's say 50% up at anyone time. The japs are still going to get a few planes through.And a few lucky hits are all you'd need. Considering CVN's hardly have armour.
The japs will get mauled but the CVN is going down!
But anything that fly too low burn fuel like no tomorrow. But you ignore that fact that prop planes need time to get to attitude to save their fuel . And because of lack of power, they take a long time to gain attiudite which burn up a lot of their fuel. Once engage and force to lower level, they take time and a lot of fuel to regain height . Remember the midway battle which the cover jap aircraft was draw down , and they are unable to climb back up to attitude to intercept the american dive bombers .
24 tomcats !!! Forget the missile , just have 2 pair to take turns fly by supersonic, the sound wave will do the job. A sonic boom like that will disperse them, and leave them in shock, a few planes will actually crash into each other in the confusion. If any figther planes fly super sonic by , it acutally the sound wave is so strong that it break all windows on the ground. -
Nearly, not even worth replying. You simply are unable to associate with the tactical situation.Originally posted by storywolf:Bad example - officials sure can catch the chickens in the barns on Ubin. You don't need a 100% rate, you just need to hit some and frighten the shit out of sum and make some blur like sotong !
Why they get into a formation ? That the simple knowledge of aviation ! That is something we learn from birds why birds all fly in formation ? That apply to cycling competition. Think about it , i give you a clue - it have to do with air drag thus ensure super fuel (energy) saving which is basic.
Secondary is for protection. -
Agreed, generally there 'only' 18 Zeros on board a Japanese carrier.Originally posted by Icemoon:Where got so many Zeros? Some are Vals and Kates right?? -
Originally posted by MobyDog:
Ekhmmm...have you ever consider the possibility that too short a dogfight is uninteresting to the audience?
If you have seen the Movie " Final countdown" you will notice that the two F-14 took about 5 to 10 mins to shoot down 2 Zeros. The Zeros have better Maneuverabilities and were shot down with 1 sidewinder and the other with cannon.
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Airlines arent using prop planes because of speed and power. Not bevause of fuel efficiency.(editOriginally posted by storywolf:You may be surprise that prop planes may not be that fuel efficient as you think, if not a lot of airlines would be using prop then jet - if travel the same distance.
But anything that fly too low burn fuel like no tomorrow. But you ignore that fact that prop planes need time to get to attitude to save their fuel . And because of lack of power, they take a long time to gain attiudite which burn up a lot of their fuel. Once engage and force to lower level, they take time and a lot of fuel to regain height . Remember the midway battle which the cover jap aircraft was draw down , and they are unable to climb back up to attitude to intercept the american dive bombers .
24 tomcats !!! Forget the missile , just have 2 pair to take turns fly by supersonic, the sound wave will do the job. A sonic boom like that will disperse them, and leave them in shock, a few planes will actually crash into each other in the confusion. If any figther planes fly super sonic by , it acutally the sound wave is so strong that it break all windows on the ground.
k nvm heh all linked actually)
Look man, we all know the range of those planes so give it a break would u?
2 pairs of tomcats take turns to to supersonic flybys=2 pairs of tomcats with no fuel aft abt 5mins -
Already give you enough clues to think about it with your common sense ! go ask the birds is you still cannot figure it out !Originally posted by MobyDog:Nearly, not even worth replying. You simply are unable to associate with the tactical situation. -
Give us a break too ok , supersonic flybys 2 pair of tomcats to the pilots just need to go into afterburner for 10-20 sec to achieve that, why must they hold for 2mins. A pair f-14s can do a few supersonic flyby , I persume 5 x 20 sec each supersonic flyby is not problem.Originally posted by |-|05|:Look man, we all know the range of those planes so give it a break would u?
2 pairs of tomcats take turns to to supersonic flybys=2 pairs of tomcats with no fuel aft abt 5mins
Given 6 pair of F-14s taking turn doing 5 x 6 = 30 supersonic boom. You think if you are a damn jap pilot , by the 3 supersonic boom, you would not be frightened to shit or totally confused ! Give you one already a super bloodly headache !
By the way there is also air to air refuelling via prowlers tankers from the cvn. -
Umm...the tanker would be KA-6D Intruder, not the Prowler!
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There can't be 300+ Zeroes in the Jap Carrier Force. There are probably 18 per carrier, considering their original mission was the attack of Pearl Harbor. They would probably carry more spares for their bomber and attack planes.
The Jap carrier group lack the radars of the Nimitz. This compromises their recon ability. To locate the Nimitz, they would have to send search planes for which they devote very little of their command towards. Their search ability is also restricted by the number of planes they put into the air. From Fuchida's account in Midway, he reveals that Jap command typically relegates the task of searching to float planes, preferring to keep their Zeros and other attack craft for more offensive purposes.
I think the bigger issue isn't the numbers game. It is first and foremost, the ability of opposing carrier group or carrier to locate the other first. The Nimitz stands the biggest chance to do this, as they have historical knowledge to back them up. The Jap Carrier Group is groping into the unknown, with regards to the Nimitz.