USS Nimitz Vs Japanese Pearl Harbor Strike Force
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2.The IJN hated scouting missions."Attack,attack,attack" was their motto.Their scouting flights were usually carried out by second rate floatplanes from the screening ships.They did not like to delegate scouting missions to carrier aircraft.Remember Midway? Now the Nimitz has 4 E-2C Hawkeyes.So who would be better in scouting?Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:You also have to take into consideration that
1.It takes a few minutes for each aircraft to be launched from the Nitmitz aircraft carrier as well
2.The japanese aircraft carrier also had scout planes
3. The japanese carriers wasn't a sitting duck
4. If the aircraft was launched before the Nitmitz launch , it could have been a different story.
Kamikaze planes would strike the nitmitz knowing that it would be a high value target(resembles an aircraft carrier) and it would go kaboom
Sea Sparrow missiles might be potent , but can it deal with a huge swarm of Zero Fighters?
3.The IJN CVNs would be sitting ducks to a barrage of Harpoons.They had no ECM,no SAMs.They would'nt have an inkling what was the Harpoon.
4.Kamikazes were not around in 1941.
The early versions of the Zero was not an attack aircraft.It was a fighter.
All the Nimitz has to do is to launch a full scale strike and then "all ahead full" for Pearl Harbour.That one strike would at least take out the 8 heavy ships. -
The thing is could the Japs get off a massive strike package in the first place? If they could,they have to deal with a CAP of Tomcats and Hawkeyes.Even non fighter aircraft-the Corsairs and Intruders could be armed with 2 Sidewinders each.Originally posted by MobyDog:Firstly, there is obviously no contest Nimizt CVN group will sure win.
Anyway, CVN are over-rated by some. Without replenishing ships, CVN by themselves wil have only 24 hrs worth of munition capabalities as shown in the serbian conflict, in a full assualt senario. On top of that, only 100+ strike sorties were achiveable in a day. They were able to launch a full strike team, but must remember that they have to be retrieve, and needs half an hour to reload and refuel and relaunch. You can't have many planes circulating to land, as they are fuel gustlers. and limited deck space for launching and landings. Doing this end to end with only about 50 m of free space in between.
But afew zeros will get thru, because there are simply too many zeros, and modern ships nowadays do not have AA guns clustered everywhere, only 4 CIWS at each corner of the CVN, with about 2,000 rounds each. even with evolved Sparrow RAM, how many can they shoot down - at most 21. afew will get thru... should one be able to drop a load on the deck and ignite JP5, well then Considered the CVN mission killed and their planes still in the sky, will be ditch, when out of fuel.
I say this is because, in the late 60's, a fire from the deck of an aircraft carrier nearly scuttled it, due to an accident where it caused a bomb to explode and ignite the fuel JP5 and spread below deck, inturn igniting other planes. more the 38 planes were destroyed, and each place have a basic load of JP5. They nealy lost the ship, now imagine if it was a war time senario
Let's assume the Nimitz's air group just disappears and the Japs are coming. THey gonna take many many many sorties before they could sink the monster.That's 90,000 tons of steel and a top notch damage control crew. -
This is the USS Forrestal fire.Originally posted by MobyDog:in the late 60's, a fire from the deck of an aircraft carrier nearly scuttled it, due to an accident where it caused a bomb to explode and ignite the fuel JP5 and spread below deck, inturn igniting other planes. more the 38 planes were destroyed, and each place have a basic load of JP5. They nealy lost the ship, now imagine if it was a war time senario
With the war in Southeast Asia providing experience for all phases of naval operations, several carriers which normally belong to the Atlantic Fleet were occasionally routed to WESTPAC duty, and thus it was that on June 6, 1967, Forrestal left Norfolk, Virginia, for what was to be her first combat deployment.
Carrying Air Wing 17, Forrestal was the first U.S. carrier to be built from the keel up with an angled deck. She carried East Coast squadrons, two F-4B squadrons squadrons; VFs 11 and 74; VAs 106 and 46, flying A-4Es; RVAH-11, with RA-5C Vigilantes, for which the big carrier had undergone major modification for the IOIC reconnaissance intelligence system; the KA-3Bs of VAH-10; and VAW-123, flying E-2As.
This is what is believed to be the last photo taken of the Forrestal on the morning of July 29, 1967
Forrestal arrived on Yankee Station on July 25 and immediately began combat operations, her aircraft flying 150 sorties during the next 4 days, without the loss of a single aircraft. At 10:52 A.M. on July 29, the second launch was being readied when a Zuni rocket accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom parked on the starboard side of the flight deck aft of the island. The missile streaked across the deck into a 400 gallon belly fuel tank on a parked A-4D Skyhawk. The ruptured tank spew highly flammable JP-5 fuel onto the deck which ignited spreading flames over the flight deck under other fully loaded aircraft ready for launch. The ensuing fire caused ordinance to explode and other rockets to ignite. Spread by the wind, the flames engulfed the aft end of the stricken ship turning the flight deck into a blazing inferno.. Berthing spaces immediately below the flight deck became death traps for fifty men, while other crewmen were blown overboard by the explosion.
Nearby ships hastened to the Forrestal's aid. The Oriskany, herself a victim of a tragic fire in October 1966, stood by to offer fire-fighting and medical aid to the larger carrier. Nearby escort vessels sprayed water on the burning Forrestal and within an hour the fire on the flight deck was under control. But secondary fires below deck took another 12 hours to contain. The damage and loss of life was catastrophic.
The four-and-a-half-acre flight deck was littered with pieces of aircraft, as men struggled to clear away bombs and ammunition, throwing the ordnance over the side. One young 130-pound lieutenant found the strength to heave a 250-pound bomb overboard.
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The Nimitz may have all the technical superority but the Japanese task force have the Kamakazie spirit. All it need is maybe one topedeo from the Japanese to sink the Nimitz but the price to pay will indeed be great.History may still remain unchange.Originally posted by Marco_Simone:I think the Nimitz can take out the entire task force.
60 of its aircraft are Harpoon capable(the Intruder,Corsair and Viking)
If the Nimitz launch all 60 planes each carrying 2 Harpoons.(they can carry up to 4 if the range is shorter)It's 120 ASMs boring down at Nagumo and friends.Mind you Nagumo did not have SAMs or chaff or radar.
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This is rubbish. They didn't have the kamikazie spirit in 1941! The Naval Planners were very careful with their Carrier Task Force and Nagumo was protective of his ships that's why they never hunted for the missing aircraft carriers as suggested by Genda.Originally posted by LinYu:The Nimitz may have all the technical superority but the Japanese task force have the Kamakazie spirit. All it need is maybe one topedeo from the Japanese to sink the Nimitz but the price to pay will indeed be great.History may still remain unchange. -
Well , what you said were hypothesis what , since it's an hypothesis that nitmitz could appear in 1941 , japanese fighter pilots , after using their ammo on the high value target and still couldn't sink it , logically would kamikaze against the aircraft carrierOriginally posted by Icemoon:This is rubbish. They didn't have the kamikazie spirit in 1941! The Naval Planners were very careful with their Carrier Task Force and Nagumo was protective of his ships that's why they never hunted for the missing aircraft carriers as suggested by Genda. -
watched the show. my bet is with the nimitz. the element of surprise is on their side, not to mention their historical knowledge on that fateful day.
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Marco_Simone,
The thing is could the Japs get off a massive strike package in the first place? If they could,they have to deal with a CAP of Tomcats and Hawkeyes.Even non fighter aircraft-the Corsairs and Intruders could be armed with 2 Sidewinders each.
First, WWII carriers can easily launched a prepared flight of 20 prop-fighters in under 10 mins. In contrast, Enterprise CVN could only do so.. with at most 6-8, in the same senario. Japs could launch their entire strike squadron in just 35 mins. They consist of bombers, fighter bombers and torpedo strike bombers
Let's assume the Nimitz's air group just disappears and the Japs are coming. THey gonna take many many many sorties before they could sink the monster.That's 90,000 tons of steel and a top notch damage control crew.
In any case, I have already state the the CVN will win. Why, The modern CVN has radars, with E2C thrown in, they can detect the Jap fleet 180 km away. And as stated by another Poster, they knew the plan. Enough time to launch an entire air Cap and strike sorties.
Now, If the senario, were that they detected each other at the same time, with the CVN having only basic cap of 2. Then I would say, CVN is ikely doomed.
Well, you see, the Jap had 348 number of planes with they can launch in 45 mins- 1 hr, while given the same time, I est only about 38,( thats the total fighter wing available, in fact the deck could not hold that many).
Now, todays Carriers are not so much different in design as those of WWII. We know the The Yorktown was sink with just a few bomb hits, it was their fuel and munition that actually sink them. We must understand the Japs also have torpedoes planes, the sidewinders were not so effective on sea expanse environment, as shown in vietnam war, they only have a 70% hit ratio, which critically deterioate at sea deck ( due to acquired radar limitation) we are talking about technologies in the 70s. and CIWS phanllx were not available then.
There are simply too many zeros in the air. SM1,2,3 are non existence then, even they exist, there are no supporting ships, harpoons are thereby moot. I couldn't even see air-launch harpoons being able to be deployed, given this senario.
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It's impossible to launch over 300 planes in 1 hr.You read the latest book about the Battle of Midway,you will know.I go back and dig out the details.Originally posted by MobyDog:Well, you see, the Jap had 348 number of planes with they can launch in 45 mins- 1 hr, while given the same time, I est only about 38,( thats the total fighter wing available, in fact the deck could not hold that many). 
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The senario was Pearl Harbour..!
There are six Jap Carriers in the strike fleet Akagi, Kaga, Soryu,Hiryu, Shokaku and Zuikaku.. with total implement of 430 planes.
Check history... they were able to launch 183 planes in just 15 mins in the first wave. The second wave of 167 planes arrived about 20-30 mins later.. that would give you a indication.... -
chey just finished watching it.. knn never fight.. tulan... if mi the in charge i will carry on the attack even if i cannot go back to present time... all my man die but can save to many others at pearl.. why not right?
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Then truman will really wished you dead.. why
Well, according to a 8 page memo, declassified in 1999, that US actually planned and baited the Japs to invade. In fact, the economic and raw material blockage went according to the full plan... and was successfully implemented. Then there is also the transcript from Naval Intelligents tracking the Japs fleet.. it's was not a surprise after all. -
why does that sound so familiar like the War On Terror today.Originally posted by MobyDog:Then truman will really wished you dead.. why
Well, according to a 8 page memo, declassified in 1999, that US actually planned and baited the Japs to invade. In fact, the economic and raw material blockage went according to the full plan... and was successfully implemented. Then there is also the transcript from Naval Intelligents tracking the Japs fleet.. it's was not a surprise after all.
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eh.... ?
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Nimitz vs 1st Koku Kantai? My money is on the Nimitz. Using the The Final Countdown scenario, I agree that Nimitz has advantage in knowing the location, strength and attack routes. Regarding the hardware, well, 24 Tomcats with 6 AAMS each plus the Corsairs which can carry at least 2 AAMs plus their Vulcan cannons could make mincemeat out of the strike force. Sure, there are more Zeroes but as has been shown in actual combat, the key to avoid being second best to a Zero is by avoiding maneuvring dogfights and concentrating more on slashing attacks. Something the Tomcats and Corsairs could do considering the massive speed advantage they have.
Reagarding attacking the ships of the Japanese fleet...the Nimitz can use everything from dumb Mk82s to Harpoons to kill the ships. Also one thing that have to be rembered, there were less AA weapons on the Japanese ships in 1941 than in 1944.
If the escorts are also whisked to 1941, well there would be more Harpoons wouldn't it? -
No more escorts would me SM2's!! The jap fleet would not even come close hahaOriginally posted by khyron1:Nimitz vs 1st Koku Kantai? My money is on the Nimitz. Using the The Final Countdown scenario, I agree that Nimitz has advantage in knowing the location, strength and attack routes. Regarding the hardware, well, 24 Tomcats with 6 AAMS each plus the Corsairs which can carry at least 2 AAMs plus their Vulcan cannons could make mincemeat out of the strike force. Sure, there are more Zeroes but as has been shown in actual combat, the key to avoid being second best to a Zero is by avoiding maneuvring dogfights and concentrating more on slashing attacks. Something the Tomcats and Corsairs could do considering the massive speed advantage they have.
Reagarding attacking the ships of the Japanese fleet...the Nimitz can use everything from dumb Mk82s to Harpoons to kill the ships. Also one thing that have to be rembered, there were less AA weapons on the Japanese ships in 1941 than in 1944.
If the escorts are also whisked to 1941, well there would be more Harpoons wouldn't it? -
When I come to think of it, the tomcats need only fly low and fast throw a few sonicbooms around the Jap ships to "Wtf" them into sailing home.
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You saw the shock on the IJN pilot's and the 1941 Americans' faces when they saw the helicopter? They probably thought the chopper was something from outer space.Originally posted by I-like-flings(m):chey just finished watching it.. knn never fight.. tulan... if mi the in charge i will carry on the attack even if i cannot go back to present time... all my man die but can save to many others at pearl.. why not right?
How about the scene of 2 Tomcats playing along with 2 Zeros before finally splashing them? -
How about an entire 2005 CVBG going back?
1 Nimitz-class CVN=72 aircraft
48 F/A-18E/F Super Hornets
10 S-3C Vikings
6 SH-60F Sea Hawks
4 E-2C Hawkeyes
4 EA-6B Prowlers
2 Ticonderoga-class AEGIS missile cruisers
2 Arleigh Burke-class AEGIS missile destroyers
2 Spruance-class ASW destroyers
2 Los Angeles-class attack submarines
In this scenario,the Nimitz don't even need to fly off her planes to attack the Japs.Just need the 2 submarines to empty their entire torpedo complements.Each submarine can carry 26 torpedoes for a total of 52 fishes.I say 3 Mk 48 ADCAPs fishes are enough for each of the 8 heavy ships. The Japs would think they have stumbled upon a minefield. -
Wa lao-A.. you might as well say ... sending the entire Japanese Naval self-defense Force, back to escort the WWII japanese strike fleets... WOW.. what a Interesting senario that will be.
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the nimitz will win hands down.
Because in the old days, they form wings formation to fly to attack. Just send a few tomcats to go super-sonic past them, fire some shots these will break up the formation totally. Keep breaking up the formation and force them lower to sea level. The jap planes never have enough fuel get even near Nimitz or return to their carrier.
As for the Jap ship. Without their planes they are sitting ducks. Send harpoons to knock them out. Well you just have to serious damage them, which will disable most weapons, then you can slowly take them out. -
I have already mentioned that..... The Mach 2+ fly pass.
But sad to say.. prop fighters has longer flight endurance than Jet fighters. doing such tactics would dry up the F-14s faster than the Zeros. And WWII battleships are design to withstand 18 inch armour piercing arty shells. It took 12 harpoons hits to sink a unladen LPH in one of target practice in the 80s. -
ya but it will be more shiok if there's a full scale attack... the movie like cheating my feeling like that... say fight then never fight... so nothing was change from start to end actually... KNNOriginally posted by Marco_Simone:You saw the shock on the IJN pilot's and the 1941 Americans' faces when they saw the helicopter? They probably thought the chopper was something from outer space.
How about the scene of 2 Tomcats playing along with 2 Zeros before finally splashing them? -
Anyone know where can i get this vcd or dvd?
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Not true for the case of F-14 it is one of the aircraft that have better ranges.Originally posted by MobyDog:I have already mentioned that..... The Mach 2+ fly pass.
But sad to say.. prop fighters has longer flight endurance than Jet fighters. doing such tactics would dry up the F-14s faster than the Zeros. And WWII battleships are design to withstand 18 inch armour piercing arty shells. It took 12 harpoons hits to sink a unladen LPH in one of target practice in the 80s.
F-14 range : Range typical: 1,600 nm (2,965 km)
ferry: 1,730 nm (3,200 km)
Japanese bomber : 1,680 miles (2700 km).
You just need 2 pairs to break up the formations, force them down to lower attiude, when they are closer, you can alway launch another 2 pair to take over. The problem with 2nd world war planes is once you force them down , they take too much fuel and time to regain attiude. This totally screw up their fuel which will run out very fast.
By the way go check out how many bombs and torpedeos sink the yamato, or the bismark ! May be armoured but when hit, they still sink.
You cannot compare a unladen LPH which has modern design compartation to contain damages. Carriers are full of fuels and bombs !
1st thing, why must you go to take out the battleships. You just need to take out the carriers which are not that armoured. You just need to hit a magzine or two and let them burn. You just have to follow the fleet which cannot outrun you and keep hitting them till they sink.