Ambush AAR

• lwflee

  8 Dec 05, 10:17

  Look at this
  video--> It is about a US convoy being ambushed. Video shot from inside one of the vehicles.
  
  I think 2 points:
  
  1. US-Iraqi Police relationship is non-existent
  
  2. I don't see any drills there at all. Where is the firing back? How come some fire some dun? I Keep seeing 'Jones' (i assume he is the gunner) taking cover and not helping to fire back. There also seems to be a lack of urgency .
  
  Discuss. In an adult manner please. None of that "you are not in Iraq dun criticise!", and "dun be an arm chair general" nonsense.
  
  
• SpecOps87

  8 Dec 05, 13:07

  Perhaps this Jones guy is not in a position to fire? I mean, if you are in a fire fight, and yet not in a position, would you fire? It just draws more fire to you and pisses the hell outta those around you.
• specfore

  8 Dec 05, 18:19

  Hard to make a comment. Even tho' we were taught IA drills, to be aggressive and return fire, it really depends on the situation and the situational awareness. The IA drill we learn, incidentally is the British and Isreali normal tactics. But not the American way. US infantry are taught to take cover and assess the situation before returning coordinated and directed fire.
  
  In this instance, gunfire is heard from some sector, but the shooters may be concealed. And there could be innocent people standing around.
  
  
• Shotgun

  8 Dec 05, 20:27

  It was a very disorganised ambush on both sides. The insurgents didn't really set up a kill zone after taking the first RPG shot. They didn't fire additional RPGs at the convoy. Fire was sporadic, n ineffective.
  
  Saber element took a while to react to the ambush. According to US Army doctrine, they were supposed to achieve fire-superiority upon contact. They did that a bit too late.
  
  However, they seemed alert enough, and was taking notice of details of what was going on around them. That helped them from taking casualties.
• |-|05|

  8 Dec 05, 20:58

  Also no NVG on jones but the guy sitting nxt to the driver did have.
• storywolf

  8 Dec 05, 21:22

  Can see they are just totally lost and dare not even dismount.
  
  Usually for soldiers when a amush like that, the vehicle commander must access the situation quick, neither to make a quick get away, or in their case loither around, it is better to dismount. Because staying inside the vehicle is more dangerous.
• SpecOps87

  8 Dec 05, 21:41

  Okay, watched the video again and concluded this, when the video was around 1min 22sec- 1min 25sec , you can cleary see tracer rounds pinging off the turrent of the Humvee.As such, Jones could not reach up to use the mounted weapon, as by doing so, it would endanger his life.
  
  And also, in the later part, it was reported that Saber 6-3 is on fire, presumingly caused by the initial RPG strike.Bare in mind that they are travellling in a barely lit street, and as Saber 6-3 is on fire, those near it will immediately suffer from a loss in their natural night vision ability, and if with NVGs on, will result in lens flaring, and of course when you can't see nuts, you obviously don't go firing in every direction.As in my earlier post,it would be unwise for them to immediately open up, though one of the guys sitting next to the window emptied an entire mag on AUTO.
  
  And do note its a night ambush, their mags are probably loaded with tracer, so if you fire indiscriminately, you may actually end up doing more harm then good as you draw more fire to yourself..
  
  **just my 2 cents worth**
  
• Shotgun

  9 Dec 05, 00:10

  Originally posted by SpecOps87:

  Okay, watched the video again and concluded this, when the video was around 1min 22sec- 1min 25sec , you can cleary see tracer rounds pinging off the turrent of the Humvee.As such, Jones could not reach up to use the mounted weapon, as by doing so, it would endanger his life.
  
  And also, in the later part, it was reported that Saber 6-3 is on fire, presumingly caused by the initial RPG strike.Bare in mind that they are travellling in a barely lit street, and as Saber 6-3 is on fire, those near it will immediately suffer from a loss in their natural night vision ability, and if with NVGs on, will result in lens flaring, and of course when you can't see nuts, you obviously don't go firing in every direction.As in my earlier post,it would be unwise for them to immediately open up, though one of the guys sitting next to the window emptied an entire mag on AUTO.
  
  And do note its a night ambush, their mags are probably loaded with tracer, so if you fire indiscriminately, you may actually end up doing more harm then good as you draw more fire to yourself..
  
  **just my 2 cents worth**
  

  The flame on the humvee works both ways. But I have to agree the insurgents would be able to see US troops better than the yanks could see the insurgents.
  
  Saber 6 didnt look liek they were equipped with NVGs. The new generation of NVGs do not flare with there is a fire. yes, it has improved.
  
  I do not agree that they were very prepared for a night fight. If they were, they would have launched a parachute flare to allow them to bring their superior fire power to bear on the insurgents.
  
  In other words, despite being in "saber" element, they weren't really combat troops... the purpose of their mission is? Film a movie?
• Shotgun

  9 Dec 05, 00:23

  Btw, did anybody hear ANY fire control orders?
• lwflee

  9 Dec 05, 01:11

  Nope...I heard someone asking for air support though.
  
  I had always thought that in an ambush, they should either speed off or dismount and attack since the Vehicles are RPG magnets.
  
  In this case, they coiuld not speed off because one of their vehicles have been hit. Yet they did not dismount. What i saw was that there was an air of uncertainty there. Nodoby knew what to do...so some dismounted...some fired back from the vehicle...some just did...nothing except shout a lot.
  
  What do you guys think they should have done in that situation? Should they perhaps have sped towards the hit vehicle so as to provide some fire for their possible injured comrades to escape from the vehicle? Another point to look at i think is whether they should have turned off their headlights? --> IN the video we see the vehicle headlights basically illuminating the people in front, and possibly contributing to the night blindness of the people in front.
  
  I dun buy the "Jones did not know where the enemy was and therefore should not fire back" theory. Someone in his vehicle was firing back. We can actually see that. So the enemy would already have seen where his vehicle was (ignoring the huge headlights for a moment).
  
  Also, It would be helpful if he just fired in the general direction of the attack, since then that would help suppress the ambushers and also provide more targets for the insurgents to shoot at, as opposed to the insurgents just firing at one target. In taht way, he would help tp s[read the odds a little. After all, he is the machine gunner and the purpose of giving him that weapon and in that position is so that he can bring effective and accurate fire to bear on enemies. In this case, he did neither.
  
  Now, I do not know what exactly happened here...but because the video was shot inside the vehicle, i think we can get a sense of what happened, and hopefully my interpretation of the events are not too far off the mark.
  
  I hope that faced with a similar situation, I would perform better than Jones did.
  
• SpecOps87

  9 Dec 05, 01:40

  Well, like I said, Jones could not possibly have reached for his vehicle mounted weapon as you can clearly see tracers pinging off the turrent's rim and see him ducking down to avoid them.It would be suicidal and foolish for him to stand up and return fire knowing that rounds are being fired at him at that point of time.
• storywolf

  9 Dec 05, 09:50

  Originally posted by SpecOps87:

  Okay, watched the video again and concluded this, when the video was around 1min 22sec- 1min 25sec , you can cleary see tracer rounds pinging off the turrent of the Humvee.As such, Jones could not reach up to use the mounted weapon, as by doing so, it would endanger his life.
  
  And also, in the later part, it was reported that Saber 6-3 is on fire, presumingly caused by the initial RPG strike.Bare in mind that they are travellling in a barely lit street, and as Saber 6-3 is on fire, those near it will immediately suffer from a loss in their natural night vision ability, and if with NVGs on, will result in lens flaring, and of course when you can't see nuts, you obviously don't go firing in every direction.As in my earlier post,it would be unwise for them to immediately open up, though one of the guys sitting next to the window emptied an entire mag on AUTO.
  
  And do note its a night ambush, their mags are probably loaded with tracer, so if you fire indiscriminately, you may actually end up doing more harm then good as you draw more fire to yourself..
  
  **just my 2 cents worth**
  

  That the problem in a vehicle, the view is limited, when engage like that, they are sitting duck, either they got out of there fast or they should have dismount, which is the standard drill. Dismount may sound dangerous, but in real it is the safer thing to do.
  
  I don't agree with you on the point that about not firing. Sometime, you may just need to get off a few round, even if you are shooting in the air. Because the other side will be frightened and auto react to the sound, thus forcing them to take cover, or make mistakes. This may give your troops the precious second to regroup for action.
  
  
• lwflee

  9 Dec 05, 10:55

  Originally posted by SpecOps87:

  Well, like I said, Jones could not possibly have reached for his vehicle mounted weapon as you can clearly see tracers pinging off the turrent's rim and see him ducking down to avoid them.It would be suicidal and foolish for him to stand up and return fire knowing that rounds are being fired at him at that point of time.

  Wait - I dun see any tracers pinging off the turret actually. I looked that the segment of video you referenced to, and this is what i saw:
  
  Jones half pops his head out
  - Flash-
  Someone shouts "RPG"
  Jones comes back in.
  
  Later someone orders Jones (i assume) to cover the rear. Later "..Jones....shooting...air man!"
  
  Now, look back at when the ambush first started. We see that the RPG in fact misses the vehicle and hits the road on the other side of the vehicle. Hence, i surmise that the burning vehicle was hit by another RPG.
• Shotgun

  9 Dec 05, 18:28

  In anycase, i agree tat they should have dismounted to engage. However, don't forget the cameraman. Who was the cameraman and wat was his job there? Was he an attached journalist? If he was, then maybe that was the reason they could not dismount and leave him in the vehicle. Nor could the speed off and leave Saber 6-3 there.
  
  In the American vehicle platoon, it consists of 4 vehicles. 6-3 is the Plt Sgt's vehicle. In otherwords, the 2nd in command. I don't think the PC would think its a good idea to leave his 2nd in command behind either by speeding off.
  
  I don't envy Jone's position. His bloody 50.cal is doesnt even have a gunshield. Increasing ur profile like that isn't exactly the brightest thing to do... Perhaps the driver should have went off the road and try to put his vehicle as hull down as possible.
  
  Seriously, those guys didn't look like proffessional soldiers. More like National Guards rotated in.
• SpecOps87

  9 Dec 05, 19:44

  I think the main argument here is that why is it that Jone's did not open fire. But honestly speaking, when contacted, they can either run or stand and fight. But they made a tactical error in this episode. Why do I say so?
  
  When you are in the dark,and a convoy of vehicles approach, you launch an RPG at them,those in the convoy should immediately kill the lights. So as to reduce the immediate visibility in the "kill zone",thus making the enemy fire ineffective.
• Shotgun

  9 Dec 05, 19:49

  not exactly true also. The ppl laying in ambush probably has better "night" vision. The troops are on the road with street lights and other vehicles lights. I would think it would be better to turn the vehicles headlights towards the insurgents and put it in high beam.
• Rockhound

  9 Dec 05, 20:43

  ambushers will always have a better firing position....ambushees are done for most of the time
• lwflee

  20 Dec 05, 03:10

  Update: Those people are from the 39th Brigade of the Arkansas National Guard.
  
  Explains things somewhat i feel.
  
  Footage is from a Discovery Channel documentary. Link --> http://times.discovery.com/convergence/offtowar/qa/qa.html
• Shotgun

  20 Dec 05, 10:18

  I wonder will our reservist riflemen or battalions react like that under real hostile fire.