SAF not welcome in Aussie?
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Yep everyone have their sad stories to tell, thousands of them from the time they are born. Why the lady justice is blind folded ? that is justice is blind, it does not have the place for compassion.Originally posted by Joe Black:I think as Singaporean, it is necessary to look at the big picture. This is not about if Nyugen has broken the law and deserve the death sentence. It is about having an exception, having compassion. We have to ask outselves do Singaporeans know what compassion is. Do we live in a selfish society where our senses are dead to compassion? Read carefully what the Australian are asking. They are pleading for compassion. There are other Australian who were executed due to drugs in Malaysia and other countries, but why this time?
The answer is that the Australian see Nyugen as an naive, but kind hearted person. Yes, he has committed a serious crime, but given his remorse, reprent and intend of commit the crime, he deserves at least some compassion, albeit that his stupidity has caused him his life.
If Singapore is to build a more compassionate society, perhaps it is a good time to reflect the mandatory sentensing in the law.
If Nyugen is kind hearted , he would not be bring drugs - that amount can kill how many people, destroy how many homes ? -
Let's intervene in return and demand that Ram be extradited to Singapore and be hung then..
Same side of the coin right.
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The issue here is that he knows the risk......... hence, no exceptions. Please. It makes it difficult to enforce our laws if we look at it from that view. It would not be fair to those we execute for trafficking even lower amts of heroin.Originally posted by storywolf:Yep everyone have their sad stories to tell, thousands of them from the time they are born. Why the lady justice is blind folded ? that is justice is blind, it does not have the place for compassion.
If Nyugen is kind hearted , he would not be bring drugs - that amount can kill how many people, destroy how many homes ? -
Its a big red stop sign....
Conduct illegal activities at your own risk
for all foreigners..... -
It's actually a lame issue. Just one that got blown big-time. Sooo.......does that mean we should have restricted media?
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screw them, they want to break with us, they want to use preassure to stop our training they can go f.uck themselves, we don't need the aussies there are many other places we can train in with wide open spaces like new zealand, canada, france maybe china or myanmmar or even east timor.
If they want to take it to the next level we can even start taking australian poultry products off our shelves and start filling it with others and take our business elsewhere.
If we pull out it will backfire them a lot of countries in this region who have similiar death penalties will see it as colonial mentality of "white trying to bully asians" all over again then they are screwed. -
Is there any legal way to get a copy of the defense deal with Aussie?
Is there any break clause to terminate the deal without
consent of Sg?
The full copy is here,obtained legally of course--
AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF AUSTRALIA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SINGAPORE CONCERNING THE USE OF SHOALWATER BAY TRAINING AREA AND THE USE OF ASSOCIATED ASSOCIATED FACILITIES IN AUSTRALIA
Under Article 20,Aussie can give us 12 months' notice to quit or
terminate at any time mutually. -
Shoalwater Bay Training Area Memorandum of Agreement just signed in Aug 2005
The new MOA allows the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) to deploy up to 6,600 personnel and 400 vehicles for brigade-level training at the Shoalwater Bay Training Area for a 45-day period each year, from 2005 to 2009. The Shoalwater Bay Training Area has an approximate area of 4,500 sq km, consisting of 2,700 sq km of land and 1,800 sq km of sea. It has diverse terrain, including rainforests, coastal dunes, mangrove swamps, and mountainous areas.
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WE GO WHERE WE ARE WELCOMED...........HELLO--ANYBODY WELCOME US ?
How about you East Timor?
Or you, Papua....? -
No.Even more we should not have a restricted media.You might hate all the publicity, but it let us all wake up and debate about an issue that is not a small one.And some of us would have discovered that they are not abolitionists and some vice-versa.Originally posted by SBS1908B:It's actually a lame issue. Just one that got blown big-time. Sooo.......does that mean we should have restricted media?
Many of us have realised that keeping the penalty but discarding the mandatory portion is the best way forward.This is what the media should do, and a mature society can let the media flow and the people in charge will still make mature and sane decisions.The media is helping to facilitate debate, rather a robust exchange than no exchange at all.
That will be sterility of ideas. -
i feel if Ngyen is given a second chance. so should the bali bombers.
but from what i recall, the australians rejoyed at the "impartiality" of the indo courts.
wierd man so can the real aussie please stand up? -
I really have mixed feelings for this case man. Partly due to the Australian press which screwed up and sensationalise the reports to increase readership.
On one hand we should have compassion for this Nguyen guy, so sad, do it in order to help his family members and himself.
But on the other hand, we should also have compassion for the general public because we do not want drugs to end up in the hands of innocent kids, resulting in severe social ills.
So which compassion do you think should be stronger? For Nguyen or for the general public? -
maybe the mandatory death sentence should be removed.
sentencing should be on a case-to-case basis. -
You gotta be out of your mind... you call trying to save one of their citizen interfering? Which planet are you from.... oh I forgot.... Singaporean has never enjoyed a govt which will do as much as possible to save its own citizen, therefore, for Australian govt to do so is called interfering....Originally posted by SBS1908B:What I am even more pissed is how Australia continuosly tries to interfere in the affairs of SEA countries. Dr Mahathir is right in calling Australia the "sherriff". This is not the first time they have acted without thought to neighbouring countries. What with pre-emptive strikes and all, who do they think they are?! Do they give thought to how we feel executing our own people and yet letting others go because they have the support of a major country?!
I think the whole terrorist thingy is different from this drug case and we should treat it as such. Terrorist blows up many many innocent lives. This poor stupid boy simply did a deed, albeit bad, but has not taken 1 single Singaporean lives. Now where is the comparision.
Please people, do not think that as Singaporean, it is right to hold such moral high ground!
I personally did not see anything wrong with John Howard or Alexandar Downer in this sad case. They have not said anything which I find offensive. Whatever the opposition or the ex-Prime ministers have said do not represent the govt position, but it is a general feeling of the Australian people. -
just hang him la... he knows it well enough if he got caught. too bad i say, the law is the law.
btw joe black please respect the laws of the Republic of Singapore. You can argue all you want but im telling you nothing will change. remember michael fay? -
Anyone remember the STimes report that SAF personnel and their families often faced harrassment from Australian civvies?
They get stuff thrown at them on the street and racial remarks yelled at them.
(This was also what happened to some girl friends of mine when a passing car full of white trash girls threw ice cream at them and then shouted racial remarks.)
This STimes report of harrasment of SAF personnela dn their families was not recent - it was more than a year ago, maybe more. Absolutely nothing to do with any recent death sentences.
I'd been to Sydney a couple of times and I though I met many many nice Australians, i have to say that I encountered a HELL LOT more racial discrimination there than any other English-speaking white countries.
Some of the discriminations were subtle while some were really overt. Ranging from friendly service staff suddenly becoming curt when they serve you to some ape calling you "chink" to your face.
I will not go into details.
Let's face it, there are a lot of bigots in Australia. (But I'm not saying ALL Australians are bigots.) And these bigots certainly do not like the idea of having Asian troops in their land. They don't really need any real excuse to scream for blood.
Anyone remember this ugly Australian woman named Hansen? -
Joe Black, we peasants wouldn't dare to have high moral grds compared to the farangs. Anyhow my heart goes out to Nguyen but our gabermen stubborn lah.
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well ... to be fair .... I have to highlight the blatant double standards to this case ..... the Aussie PM himself give tacit approval to the death sentence for the Bali bombers .... to paraphrase him ... "it is up to indonesia to enforce their law and not for us to interfere ... "Originally posted by Joe Black:You gotta be out of your mind... you call trying to save one of their citizen interfering? Which planet are you from.... oh I forgot.... Singaporean has never enjoyed a govt which will do as much as possible to save its own citizen, therefore, for Australian govt to do so is called interfering....
I think the whole terrorist thingy is different from this drug case and we should treat it as such. Terrorist blows up many many innocent lives. This poor stupid boy simply did a deed, albeit bad, but has not taken 1 single Singaporean lives. Now where is the comparision.
Please people, do not think that as Singaporean, it is right to hold such moral high ground!
I personally did not see anything wrong with John Howard or Alexandar Downer in this sad case. They have not said anything which I find offensive. Whatever the opposition or the ex-Prime ministers have said do not represent the govt position, but it is a general feeling of the Australian people.
so now ... because the culprit is also an Aussie ... it is right for them to interfere ? .... in both cases the victims, real and intended, were australians ! ....
be glad that this chap is not white ... (and a pretty woman) .... or they'll probably start burning Singapore flags down there ...
(as an aside, Tvdog brought up a good point, thousands of Singaporeans have been to Australia, students, troops, tourists and all .... and while many of them have good memory of the place, lots of others experience their first dose of white racism there ....... and now their ex PM is calling us a "rogue Chinese port city ?" ... you should take a look at what some of their online newspapers comments are like, before they get swiftly censored out .. )
as for training areas ... I'm sure a lot more cost effective training places can be found, besides shipping thousands of men, and tons of equipment to Australia (or new zealand ), India perhaps, or southern China even .... their traning areas would be closer to the type of terrain that we'll be operating in during a real war anyways .... -
Originally posted by Joe Black:
Oh yes, it's not interfering, it's called pulling or throwing your weight around. Singaporean understands that our government RESPECTS the laws of other countries and that any of its citizens who fall foul of those laws are liable to be punished by those laws.
You gotta be out of your mind... you call trying to save one of their citizen interfering? Which planet are you from.... oh I forgot.... Singaporean has never enjoyed a govt which will do as much as possible to save its own citizen, therefore, for Australian govt to do so is called interfering....Originally posted by Joe Black:
How convenient to ignore the facts that those drugs will harm many innocent lives as well, maybe even ruin more lives than a single terrorist bomb can take? How is that going to be different then?
I think the whole terrorist thingy is different from this drug case and we should treat it as such. Terrorist blows up many many innocent lives. This poor stupid boy simply did a deed, albeit bad, but has not taken 1 single Singaporean lives. Now where is the comparision.Originally posted by Joe Black:
There is nothing about holding moral high ground, this is about a sovereign nation executing the law in a fair and impartial way.
Please people, do not think that as Singaporean, it is right to hold such moral high ground!
I personally did not see anything wrong with John Howard or Alexandar Downer in this sad case. They have not said anything which I find offensive. Whatever the opposition or the ex-Prime ministers have said do not represent the govt position, but it is a general feeling of the Australian people.
I really doubt your last paragraph there. If what the opposition says is absolutely reflective of the general feeling of the majority, why is it that they are not the ones in power? I was around during the last elections and I too was surprised by the appallingly low level of support the current opposition actually polled, as opposed to the expected "close call" that was trumpeted. Are they saying that, using the facade of nationalism, just to boost their political prestige? -
for those who're really thinking that this smuggler should be let of.. think this..
if it is your children who're gonna suffer from these drugs, would u let him go?
if he was a murderer instead who've murdered your family, would u let him go?
hang
period. -
Wait people come in and ask what if you are the family of the one being hanged.
This topic will never have an ending. Remember, you are all giving your own opinions. -
Thus is the sad fate of a society that still has some segments quite primitive and not globalised.It's pathetically funny to see an old white man shouting "Chink" and what I would do would just give him a look over and chuckle at him.Originally posted by tvdog:Anyone remember the STimes report that SAF personnel and their families often faced harrassment from Australian civvies?
They get stuff thrown at them on the street and racial remarks yelled at them.
(This was also what happened to some girl friends of mine when a passing car full of white trash girls threw ice cream at them and then shouted racial remarks.)
This STimes report of harrasment of SAF personnela dn their families was not recent - it was more than a year ago, maybe more. Absolutely nothing to do with any recent death sentences.
I'd been to Sydney a couple of times and I though I met many many nice Australians, i have to say that I encountered a HELL LOT more racial discrimination there than any other English-speaking white countries.
Some of the discriminations were subtle while some were really overt. Ranging from friendly service staff suddenly becoming curt when they serve you to some ape calling you "chink" to your face.
I will not go into details.
Let's face it, there are a lot of bigots in Australia. (But I'm not saying ALL Australians are bigots.) And these bigots certainly do not like the idea of having Asian troops in their land. They don't really need any real excuse to scream for blood.
Anyone remember this ugly Australian woman named Hansen?
It's a fartingly funny joke when those white girls throw ice-cream.Really some evidence of mental regression.
And have you heard of caucasians being shown a thing or two about Singaporean whoop-ass in clubs here? -
this doesn't happen in Australia alone ... you get such things where I am too ... (Canada) ... I don't give much thoughts to such behaviour at all ... except when professors or TAs are involved ... (bad bad experience before, in my second year, will post more of this after my finals, in a more appropriate forumOriginally posted by LazerLordz:Thus is the sad fate of a society that still has some segments quite primitive and not globalised.It's pathetically funny to see an old white man shouting "Chink" and what I would do would just give him a look over and chuckle at him.
It's a fartingly funny joke when those white girls throw ice-cream.Really some evidence of mental regression.
And have you heard of caucasians being shown a thing or two about Singaporean whoop-ass in clubs here? 
) .... it is probably less overt than in australia (except when they are drunk ) but it gets to you when smiling waitresses suddenly turn curt or when small town shopkeepers stare at you like a hawk when you enter the place ...
to be fair, most of the people i've met are very friendly, and go out of the way to make me feel comfortable, and one has to remember that while Singapore was a multi-cultural society since it's very founding, countries like Australia and Canada were not until very recently in their history, only barely the last 3 decades or so ... and if we can't truly say with conviction that we're a successful multi-cultural society, that all of us are not racist, what more them ? ... -
Well, the difference in this drug case vs some others is that this boy was carrying the drugs back to Australia. If the drug is going to cause problems they will happen in Australia and not in Singapore. The fact that the arguement about how drugs are destroying life (albeit true), is not going to happen in this case in Singapore (unlike the Singaporean students in Melbourne will also be one of the herion consumer).Originally posted by alss:for those who're really thinking that this smuggler should be let of.. think this..
if it is your children who're gonna suffer from these drugs, would u let him go?
hang
period.
Look, I am not saying he has broken the law. I am not saying his crime is not serious. I am saying is that in certain circumstances like this, a little compassion can be shown. I believe in giving some second chance, someone who can repent. and contribute to the society.
Anyway, I can see that the govt is not going to back down. I sometimes wonder if the people are really ready to build more of a compassionate society or is this only a lip services. I recall how the PM talked about transforming the society to a more compassionate one, only to see that in this case, compassion is not being shown. How can the people learn.... -
After the hanging,every MP in Aussie will fight to table a motion
to terminate the Shoalwater Bay Agreement mentioned and shown
the details above.
100% will get YA.
In order to save face of Sg,it will be a mutually agreemnet
to terminate earlier instead of the notice to quit 1 year.
It could be 6 months'agreed mutually'.
This may be a good news for family of SAF,but it will be
a bad news for SAF planners.
Even US maintain SAF training there after Michael Faye.
Aussie should think carefully,the world is watching at-----Aussie.