Best and Worst Rifle ever handled
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Best: M4 Carbine
Pros
+Light weight
+Easy to use
+Expandable , Grenade Launcher, Sharpshooter scope etc
+Human ergonomics
+VERY sexy looking
Cons
- Needs to be extremely clean to prevent jams
Remarks:Great for spec ops
Worst: SA80
Pros
+Fairly accurate
+B
Cons
-Unrealiable
-Too many plastic parts
-Flimsy feel (can literally fall into pieces when dropped)
-weight is not balanced
- Trigger finger needed to turn off safety (madness!)
Remarks: Crap rifle
Favorite Sniper Rifle
PSG -1
Pros
exteremly accurate
Cons
Too heavy
Others?, please share similar experience -
You actually handled an SA80? May I know when this was? And what version? A1 (pre-HK mod) or A2? As far as I know, the A2 version had pretty good reviews from troops in the field.
I had a friend who graduated from Sandhurst; he had some complaints about the A1 version, but said most of the criticisms were based on second-hand information that got passed round and exaggerated. Yes, the A1 had problems; no, that didn't stop it from going 'bang' if you took care of it. A bit too much care sometimes...
For me, best rifle handled: CAR-15.
Light, reasonably accurate in CQB and VERY ergonomic. Short length is a real bonus, especially in CQB.
Cons: Not very accurate at longer distances... Or maybe im just a bad shot
Worst rifle? I've only handled the M16, CAR-15 and SAR-21. Guess I would have to say that the one I like least is the SAR-21.
Sexy looking gun, but weighs too much (kevlar plate in the cheek-rest?!?!), LAD zero goes off after prolonged fire cos it's placed right next to the muzzle, reloading magazines is slower, not very ergonomic. I much prefer the M16 style fire selector using the thumb. -
Agreed re the SA80 A2. A1 was crap apparently, but A2 is supposed to be good since the uk paid HK massive amounts of money (more than a brand new rifle would cost!) to upgrade the A1.
All hearsay of course. -
Ever wondered why the Americans hung on to the M-16 series for decades long after its service life?
Of course this can be directly attributed to 2 failed programs: the ambitious search for a caseless weapon and then the OICW/XM8 failed to produce a successor.
But it is also because the M-16 is actually a pretty damn good weapon inspite of its self-fouling gas system. It had turned out to be one of the best rifle when it comes to ergonomics. And its clean simple lines had made it easy to attach things to. (So much so that someone once said they look like christmas trees with all the misc attachments.)
Another proof is the civilian versions. Private arms manufacturer in the US can choose to manufacture any weapon they want for the ciivilian market but the M-16 variants seemed to be the most popular. There must be hundreds of M-16 variants out there, more than any other weapon type in history.
With the XM-8 now dead, and the known dislike of bullpups by US armed forces, one wonders why they don't just adopt a M-16 with a piston drive. There are already a few versions being made and marketed - among them H&K. I think such a weapon will beat the HK G36, now considered one of the best conventional layout weapon.
Apart from the M-16, the only other weapon I have handled is an MP-5. Once at a police exhitbition and then also played a lot of combat games with an airsoft in Hong Kong. It is ergonomically very good especially with a standard fixed stock. The only thing I didn't like about it was the lever-type mag release. I prefer the M-16 push-button release. Though the MP-5 also has the push-button together with the lever, the button is impossible to reach without first removing your hand from the pistol-grip. It's probably there as an alternative just in case the lever is broken off or something.
The M-16 push-button makes for very fast reloading. In an emergency you can just push the button and let the empty mag drop as you reach for a fresh one. I used to do this during CTSS rundown as there is an instructor following to pick up the empties for you
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Yeap,agree with you tvdog.M16 style of reloading is second to none of the weapon platforms.Quick and easy,no hassle like the SAR21,where you gotta push the weapon to the front,eject it from the rear and fumble for a new mag before cocking the weapon to chamber a round and resume firing. M16 is fuss-free,eject and get a fresh mag at the same time.Once fresh mag is shoved in,just very simply press the bolt-release and you are good to go.
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totally agreed~
fast convinient easy reload action~ -
Since the AR15 family is covered. A civilian rifle to the bunch.
Winchester 94 Trapper .357 Mag
Pros:
- Fun to shoot
- Fairly accurate
- Light weight
- Very easy to use
- Safety is easy to engage, easily operated by the thumb (Push button type)
Cons:
- Some work can be done on the factory sights
- Load more than 6 rounds the weapons jams when it is supposed to be able to load to 9, probably only on the one I used
Remarks: Sweet little plinker, not something you want to go to war with but for self defense it ain't too bad
I think another reason the AR15 is so popular in the States is because there are no other good alternatives. Due to the import ban there are no other weapons available in the States other than the AR15, AK clones, FALs, HK clones etc.
Also to manufacture a weapon you would require a license from the original manufacturer, if they aren't keen on giving it to you, you won't be able to manufacture the weapon without violating patents.
I also believe it has something to do with American pride, support American made and designed products. The wide range of after market parts helps too.
The FNC, Daewoo K2, JapanÂ’s Type 99 also has ergonomics rather similar to the AR15.
As for the SAR21 I think itÂ’ll take some time before it get rids of its teething problems just like the M16. -
How likely do you think we'll get an upgrade to the SAR21? Considering not all the units out there even have it?
As for the SAR21 I think itÂ’ll take some time before it get rids of its teething problems just like the M16.[/b]
I guess we can use the rate of replacement of the different versions of the Ultimax 100 for reference. Answer: NOT FAST AT ALL!!! -
The FN Scar seems promising...
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worst rifle handled....
Sar 21...
cant shoot the broadside of a barn with it...hehehe...but felt comfy during fibua...
best rifle handled
M16 s1...
ooooh...so accurate...very easy when shooting snap and moving targets....i'm very instinctive on the M16 compared to the SAR 21...iron sights were super convenient
best loved rifle(weapon lar har...)
Ultimax 100 Mk3
so easy to clean(always loved cleaning it)....can shoot steadily..accurately..and felt pretty relaxed...onli prob i got was the magazine..but using the drum was really cool although loading it with rounds was a bitch.... -
Yeah but you've never HANDLED it before!Originally posted by SpecOps87:The FN Scar seems promising... That's the thread topic 
And Ultimax100 being the best weapon Rockhound has handled? Oh dear, we must have been using a different Ultimax100 then.
Pros: Light, accurate.
Cons: Rust-bucket is VERY hard to clean, the 100rd drum is an incredible source of IAs... and it's incredibly difficult to load it without the special loader thing... so no loading in the field. Yeah right, like we'll never exhaust our drums in a protracted engagement
So the new directive is to use only the 30rd magazines... riiiight, a self-induced empty magazine IA every 30rds in a squad support weapon is NOT what I want.
Its a decent weapon; but not for its role as the section's SAW. -
Never said I did handle the FN Scar before did I?
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Ah... Ultimax 100.
Very acccurate when fired in very short bursts. Tried it several times. But once during live firing I got a double feed that took the 2 instructors more than 10 mins to dislodge the 2 jammed rounds.
I don't know if the 100-round drum jams often since I've never even touched one before. But several other nations' special forces like Indonesia and Philippines are using it and I have yet to hear any reports on its performance. Most reviews I read on the net seems to sing nothing praises about the weapon, but never specifically mentioned the drum.
Of course these weapon reviews have to be taken with a big pinch of salt - including those from Jane's.
Why?
Because they were all done by journalists of unknown military background. Furthermore, they were written after a day at the range, not under protracted real or even simulated combat situations.
However, many reports said that it passed US Army trials with flying colours but for various reasons weren't exactly what they were looking for.
In my opinion, the Ultimax will not see much further upgrading as I'm pretty sure the next SAW from ST will be a belt-feed. The reason I suspect this is because a drum/mag fed weapon is not the money cow CIS thought it will turn out to be.
I had a discussion re drum vs belt feed on other forums. There were many opinions against drum mag; like you can't reload it by hand and this creates logitiscal problems. But you can't exactly hand link a belt of ammo either.
Both drum and belt 5.56 ammo had to be separately supplied different from the riflemen.
But one guy made a very good point against drums: You have to carry the empty drums with you and they are not exactly featherweights.
Whereas with the belt option, after firing off a belt there is nothing residual for the SAW gunner to carry. You get resupplied with new belts and you're good to go. But with drums, you have to return the empty drums to be reloaded back at base camp.
But again, belt feeding has the problem of slower combat weapon reloading and exposed ammo can get dirty, get hooked on stuff etc. And most belt-feeding mechanisms add more weapon weight. But definitely less prone to jamming. -
its pretty easy to clean if u clean it regularly.....when i used it...mine hardly jam....i could always clean a SAW better than i could clean a m16 or a sar 21Originally posted by Incedrius:Yeah but you've never HANDLED it before! That's the thread topic
And Ultimax100 being the best weapon Rockhound has handled? Oh dear, we must have been using a different Ultimax100 then.
Pros: Light, accurate.
Cons: Rust-bucket is VERY hard to clean, the 100rd drum is an incredible source of IAs... and it's incredibly difficult to load it without the special loader thing... so no loading in the field. Yeah right, like we'll never exhaust our drums in a protracted engagement
So the new directive is to use only the 30rd magazines... riiiight, a self-induced empty magazine IA every 30rds in a squad support weapon is NOT what I want.
Its a decent weapon; but not for its role as the section's SAW. -
The AR15/M16/M4 rifles are easily the most ergonomic and best-handling rifles I have handled. There might be some controversy about the combat effectiveness of the .223/5.56mm cartridge, but for recreational shooting, this family of rifles is tops. The variety of civilian aftermarket parts and add-ons available for it is truly staggering.
Of the rifles I own or have handled and shot, I would have to say the German K98 Mauser bolt-action rifle is the most unpleasant to shoot. The combination of massive recoil from the 8x57mm cartridge and a metal buttplate makes for a decidedly unpleasant and painful shooting experience. I'm usually able to only get about 20 rounds off on the K98 before my right shoulder starts throbbing. -
What's the point of having a belt-fed SAW unless we will give up using it in a FIBUA house-clearing role?
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Originally posted by LRRP:
my range use this gd, no night range....................
Worst: SA80
Pros
+Fairly accurate
+B
Cons
-Unrealiable
-Too many plastic parts
-Flimsy feel (can literally fall into pieces when dropped)
-weight is not balanced
- Trigger finger needed to turn off safety (madness!)
Remarks: Crap rifle -
Guys..SAR80 not SA80.Totally diff rifles.
SA80- UK Army
SAR80 - SAF. -
Not really. The M249 Minimi variant used by the British Army is STRICTLY the Para version. Shorter barrel, retractable stock. The weapon is belt fed, and the rounds are now commonly held in a soft canvas pouch that normally holds either 100 rounds or 200 rounds. Most armies that adopted the Minimi in its many variants no longer use the 200rd hard plastic feed box.Originally posted by LazerLordz:What's the point of having a belt-fed SAW unless we will give up using it in a FIBUA house-clearing role?
Of course, a belt fed SAW will be a fair bit heavier than an Ultimax100. But a self-induced empty magazine IA in a section support weapon (probably my biggest grouse!) will be handily taken care of. And Id rather carry a little more weight than not be confident of my weapon.
*Of course, it would be my SAW gunner humping that extra weight!* -
*slaps head*Originally posted by Incedrius:Not really. The M249 Minimi variant used by the British Army is STRICTLY the Para version. Shorter barrel, retractable stock. The weapon is belt fed, and the rounds are now commonly held in a soft canvas pouch that normally holds either 100 rounds or 200 rounds. Most armies that adopted the Minimi in its many variants no longer use the 200rd hard plastic feed box.
Of course, a belt fed SAW will be a fair bit heavier than an Ultimax100. But a self-induced empty magazine IA in a section support weapon (probably my biggest grouse!) will be handily taken care of. And Id rather carry a little more weight than not be confident of my weapon.
*Of course, it would be my SAW gunner humping that extra weight!*
Of course..the canvas box.. -
Can you guys please explain to an old man what is it you were trying to say so I can update my internet lingo skills.
What do you mean by "gd" and your whole sentence is a mystery to me. Please explain...Originally posted by mach10:my range use this gd, no night range....................
I'm sorry, but what are you trying to say?Originally posted by LazerLordz:What's the point of having a belt-fed SAW unless we will give up using it in a FIBUA house-clearing role? -
Originally posted by LRRP:
Worst: SA80
Pros
+Fairly accurateOriginally posted by LRRP:
Worst: SA80
Pros
+Fairly accurate bloody accurate for my concern with susat i found even a person who hasn't handled a SA80 can get fairly good shot with it
+B
Cons
-Unrealiable Old version of the SA80 did have a tendency to jam but new version by heckler and koch is much more reliable and doesn't jam unless given poor cleaning of weapon
-Too many plastic parts This doesn't really bother me When i handled the weapon, however for some regiments means keeping spare part plastic parts in case of breakage but this rarely happens
-Flimsy feel (can literally fall into pieces when dropped) I've fallen down a slope with this rifle and have it bashed about the place and it still works fine with only the coc-in handle needed replacing (old version of the rifle)
-weight is not balanced ok i will admit for some the bull-pup design does annoy some ppl but given constant use and training u barely notice it
- Trigger finger needed to turn off safety (madness!)
Might I ask how u handled the weapon? IÂ’ve used my left index finger to switch safety (NSPs)
Remarks: Crap rifle Only if you do not know how to handle the rifle
Former T.A