RSAF's eventual procurement of the F-35 JSF
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As you all would have already known, Singapore is in the JSF programme as a Security Cooperative Participant. It is an open secret that the RSAF is looking to the F-35 to fill its needs in the years to come.
The F-35 itself is a very capable aircraft, and comes in 3 versions (so far), the conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) F-35A, the Advanced Short Take-Off Vertical Landing (ASTOVL) F-35B, and the carrier-based (CV) F-35C.
The USAF and RAF are ordering mainly the F-35A, the USMC and RN are ordering the F-35B, and the USN, the F-35C
The USAF is considering the F-35B. The Royal Navy is considering ordering the F-35C variant for its large CVF Future Carrier program.
One important development has been the emergence of the USAF requirement for the F-35B. The STOVL variant had been viewed as the most likely victim of cost-cutting measures, however the USAF commitment seems to guarantee the aircraft that the USMC, RN, and RAF need. It is understood that the US military's experience in Afghanistan has highlighted the importance of more flexible assets in the close air support role.
USAF has elected to buy three wings (representing 216 examples) of the F-35B, as a result. For a time, it appeared that the USAF variant of the F-35B would contain enough changes to constitute a new variant. Changes were to include differences in the propulsion system to increase emphasis on STOL capability over that of VTOL, a larger wing to allow more fuel, an interior cannon (as opposed to the USMC external gun pod), or changes to the in-flight refuelling system. However, due to opposition from people involved with the program, the USAF version will be essentially identical to the USMC/RN F-35B specification.
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my question is, what variants (and possible numbers) of the F-35 do you think the RSAF will procure? Of course the F-35C would be out of the question, unless the RSN suddenly decides to get a CV. Would we get mostly F-35As? or mostly As and some Bs or the other way round? supposedly the F-35Bs, due to measures taken to reduce weight, has made the the internal bay unable to carry Mk-84 sized weapons.
Discuss away =) -
The RSAF would probably acquire 40 aircraft (2 squadrons of 20 aircraft each) to replace the 53 F-5S/Ts from 2014 onwards.
Our F-16C/D fleet would probably need to be replaced from 2022 onwards and what better way to do it than to procure yet more F-35s? Perhaps 60 additional aircraft to equip 3 more squadrons to be bought?
My opinion is that the RSAF might operate 5 full squadrons comprising 100 F-35s in the very long run...
Any differing views are welcome... -
buy 2 CVs... name it RSS Lee Kuan Yew and RSS Sir Stamford Raffles(just like how US did for their CVs- USS Ronald Reagan, USS A. Lincoln.. etc..) then buy about 16 F35Cs for each CVs remember to equip each CV with Gundam planes too!!hehe.. we'll be "superpower!!"
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I don't think we will get any VSTOL versions....
And there is no way RSN will operate a CV. -
I personally think that with the buying of F-15T, our F-5 fighter will also be replace by the F-15T. It is clear that the procurement will not stop at 8 - 10 aircraft. There are reports that RSAF is trimming down the fighter type from 3 to 2. Replacing the F-5 is the next important task and they are coming to another end of their lifespan as their previous upgrade will only last them 10 years. And also I doubt the F-35 will be released for sale to us that early, probably not till 2020, considering we are only participating as a partner, not investor. My bet is that in the future 2 squadron of 20 F-15T each (air superiority, etc) and 3 squadron of 20 F-35A each (ground attack, SEAD, etc). If we buy F-35B, then something must be on the mind of defence ministry thinking. Maybe not of a carrier but an amphibious assault ship like the Wasp-class vessel. Currently to ferry 1 battalion of Guards to fight using helicopter from our LSTs is not quite possible. A likely scenario is that the AAS will carry the Guards together with helicopters to fight while F-35B provide the necessary air cover.
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Don't forget our Blk52+ can still be the legacy squadron for SEAD too.And noting that ST Marine has actually a much larger LPD on plans which was currently turned down by MINDEF, it comes down to the B and C config.I wouldn't dismiss the C anytime soon.The SAF is transforming quite fast comparatively and the only natural progression from frigate and submarine operations is some form of naval air element.Originally posted by kelong70:I personally think that with the buying of F-15T, our F-5 fighter will also be replace by the F-15T. It is clear that the procurement will not stop at 8 - 10 aircraft. There are reports that RSAF is trimming down the fighter type from 3 to 2. Replacing the F-5 is the next important task and they are coming to another end of their lifespan as their previous upgrade will only last them 10 years. And also I doubt the F-35 will be released for sale to us that early, probably not till 2020, considering we are only participating as a partner, not investor. My bet is that in the future 2 squadron of 20 F-15T each (air superiority, etc) and 3 squadron of 20 F-35A each (ground attack, SEAD, etc). If we buy F-35B, then something must be on the mind of defence ministry thinking. Maybe not of a carrier but an amphibious assault ship like the Wasp-class vessel. Currently to ferry 1 battalion of Guards to fight using helicopter from our LSTs is not quite possible. A likely scenario is that the AAS will carry the Guards together with helicopters to fight while F-35B provide the necessary air cover. -
The RSAF is definitely looking at streamlining of fighter types, just look at the "gift" of our F16 blk 15s to the RTAF.Originally posted by kelong70:I personally think that with the buying of F-15T, our F-5 fighter will also be replace by the F-15T. It is clear that the procurement will not stop at 8 - 10 aircraft. There are reports that RSAF is trimming down the fighter type from 3 to 2. Replacing the F-5 is the next important task and they are coming to another end of their lifespan as their previous upgrade will only last them 10 years. And also I doubt the F-35 will be released for sale to us that early, probably not till 2020, considering we are only participating as a partner, not investor. My bet is that in the future 2 squadron of 20 F-15T each (air superiority, etc) and 3 squadron of 20 F-35A each (ground attack, SEAD, etc). If we buy F-35B, then something must be on the mind of defence ministry thinking. Maybe not of a carrier but an amphibious assault ship like the Wasp-class vessel. Currently to ferry 1 battalion of Guards to fight using helicopter from our LSTs is not quite possible. A likely scenario is that the AAS will carry the Guards together with helicopters to fight while F-35B provide the necessary air cover.
But the F5s are only recently upgraded. Also there are just so many of them. 50+ and some in Recce role also.
I think we will at least get 20+ F15s eventually. as it would make more economic sense to operate...
Even if the F5s are to be slowly replaced by the F15, it will be in phases. probbaly the first generation of F5 can be replaced as they hit their end of life airtime....
Also judging from the practice of the F16, it will be years before the RSAF ferry the F15 back from the states..... so the F5 will still need to man the fort in sgp. -
How's the progress of the JSF program so far, anyway? I heard it's been running into problems.
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But there will be a shortfall definitely from 2014 onwards as our F-5S/T fleet is retired. Moreover the F-35 is not regarded a high end fighter like the F/A-22 so I feel that we will definitely acquire some from 2014 onwards, keeping in mind that the F-15T is meant as an A-4SU replacement and not a F-5S/T replacement.Originally posted by kelong70:I personally think that with the buying of F-15T, our F-5 fighter will also be replace by the F-15T. It is clear that the procurement will not stop at 8 - 10 aircraft. There are reports that RSAF is trimming down the fighter type from 3 to 2. Replacing the F-5 is the next important task and they are coming to another end of their lifespan as their previous upgrade will only last them 10 years. And also I doubt the F-35 will be released for sale to us that early, probably not till 2020, considering we are only participating as a partner, not investor. My bet is that in the future 2 squadron of 20 F-15T each (air superiority, etc) and 3 squadron of 20 F-35A each (ground attack, SEAD, etc). If we buy F-35B, then something must be on the mind of defence ministry thinking. Maybe not of a carrier but an amphibious assault ship like the Wasp-class vessel. Currently to ferry 1 battalion of Guards to fight using helicopter from our LSTs is not quite possible. A likely scenario is that the AAS will carry the Guards together with helicopters to fight while F-35B provide the necessary air cover.
Even acquiring a fleet of 40 F-15T will just about be sufficient to replace the now withdrawn fleet of 82 A-4SU Skyhawks. Expecting the 40 new planes to also cover the duties of 53 F-5S/T would be stretching them a little too much won't it?
i.e Replacing 135 warplanes with only 40 new ones? This would result in a sharp fall in the critical numbers required for us to maintain a truly effective fighting force. -
eh, I read in a report that the Pentagon is cutting down the purchase of the aircraft from congress due to its exhorbitant cost. They intend to purchase around 70 plus number of aircraft for the time being. Each aircraft cost around USD250 million dollar.Originally posted by Delta 5:The RSAF would probably acquire 40 aircraft (2 squadrons of 20 aircraft each) to replace the 53 F-5S/Ts from 2014 onwards.
Our F-16C/D fleet would probably need to be replaced from 2022 onwards and what better way to do it than to procure yet more F-35s? Perhaps 60 additional aircraft to equip 3 more squadrons to be bought?
My opinion is that the RSAF might operate 5 full squadrons comprising 100 F-35s in the very long run...
Any differing views are welcome...
In SGD dollars will be 480 million dollars for 1 aircraft. -
I'd say a safer number of 50-60 F-15Ts and 50 F-35s will be better.
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did you confuse it with the JSF with the Raptor ? .....Originally posted by Sid_Vicious:eh, I read in a report that the Pentagon is cutting down the purchase of the aircraft from congress due to its exhorbitant cost. They intend to purchase around 70 plus number of aircraft for the time being. Each aircraft cost around USD250 million dollar.
In SGD dollars will be 480 million dollars for 1 aircraft.
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That's the F/A-22..can't be the F-35.And it's highly unlikely we will get the Raptors..not even UK is getting them.Originally posted by Sid_Vicious:eh, I read in a report that the Pentagon is cutting down the purchase of the aircraft from congress due to its exhorbitant cost. They intend to purchase around 70 plus number of aircraft for the time being. Each aircraft cost around USD250 million dollar.
In SGD dollars will be 480 million dollars for 1 aircraft.
Yeah it'll be nice to see a bunch of F/A-22s doing afterburners at NDP with our RSAF logo..but it's not gonna happen..unless.. -
Thanks for correcting me.Originally posted by LazerLordz:That's the F/A-22..can't be the F-35.And it's highly unlikely we will get the Raptors..not even UK is getting them.
Yeah it'll be nice to see a bunch of F/A-22s doing afterburners at NDP with our RSAF logo..but it's not gonna happen..unless..
can u tell me the difference between F22 & F35? Why UK is not even getting them? -
I also hope for 60 F-15Ts... This number would be sufficient for 3 full squadrons!Originally posted by LazerLordz:I'd say a safer number of 50-60 F-15Ts and 50 F-35s will be better.
Imagine the long range strike power of the RSAF!
But 40 would be a more realistic number given that the F-15 production line would probably not stay open beyond 2012 and that we are only getting 8 or 12 aircraft initially in 2008.
With 60 still potent F-16C/Ds expected to stay in service at least till 2022, an initial buy of 40 or even 50 F-35s (introduced in batches just like the F-16C/Ds) seems logical to replace the F-5S/T fleet.
Differing views are welcome
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F/A-22 is an advanced tactical fighter, tasked with gaining and maintaining air superiority over potential aerial adversaries. however it has certain A2G capability (hence the F/A) and also limited electronic warfare capability.Originally posted by Sid_Vicious:Thanks for correcting me.
can u tell me the difference between F22 & F35? Why UK is not even getting them?
The F-35 is the joint strike fighter. Its purpose was to replace the current generation of strike fighters, such as the harrier, the A-10 Thunderbolt II, F/A-18 Hornet and the F-16 Fighting Falcon. It also has air to air capability, and it can carry ordnance externally, which i think the F-22 cannot. -
hmm. just wondering, in case of any conflict past 2012, in case we lose a few airframes, does that mean we cannot get any replacements?Originally posted by Delta 5:But 40 would be a more realistic number given that the F-15 production line would probably not stay open beyond 2012 and that we are only getting 8 or 12 aircraft initially in 2008. -
Don't be surprised if we get a mix of F15Ts and F16 (maybe in the E variant?) to replace the F5. Yeah, 20 F15Ts is probably for the short haul, we'll probably get another 20 F15Ts.
Also remember, we still have an entire squadron of F16s in the US. When they return, they will probably take up a retired A4 squadron number. -
Originally posted by LazerLordz
I agree that SAF is slowly progressing and naval air element is another area that we got to improve. F-35 is strictly a carrier-based. It needs catapult for it to launch and there is no way of launching the C-version off from a LPD (at least from current LPD design). Former Chief of Navy Liu (forget his name...) had stated before that given SAF's limited personnel, Singapore will not operate CV in the near future (unless ST Marine comes up with a crew-saving design). So F-35C is out.
Don't forget our Blk52+ can still be the legacy squadron for SEAD too.And noting that ST Marine has actually a much larger LPD on plans which was currently turned down by MINDEF, it comes down to the B and C config.I wouldn't dismiss the C anytime soon.The SAF is transforming quite fast comparatively and the only natural progression from frigate and submarine operations is some form of naval air element.Originally posted by Delta 5
The F-5S upgrading first took place in 1994. If I'm not wrong the first upgraded squadron flies in 1999. Official reports have stated that the upgrade will extend their lifeline by 10 to 15 years. Lets say 2015 is the final deadline, the F-15T will have attended training in US for 5 years (delivery date believed to be 2008 - 2010). So it's time to bring the 1st batch back. Eventual procurement will be about 40. W must not forget that RSAF bought 20 F-16C/D Blk52+ just to replace the A-4SU, and also remaining F-16C/D blk 52 in our orbat. So the F-16 and 20 F-15 will replace the 80 A-4SU given the superior capability of the 2 over the skyhawks. The other 20 F-15T will replace the oldest F-5 first. Rest of the F-5 and shortfall of capability after retirement of A-4SU and also eventual early retirement or gift to friendly countries of our F-16s will eventually be replaced by the new F-35A/B in maybe 2020. 5 squadrons of 20 each is 100 planes not 40. These 100 more capable new birds will replace 135 old birds. Why not? I agree that there will definitely be shortfall in capability. But thats part and parcel.
But there will be a shortfall definitely from 2014 onwards as our F-5S/T fleet is retired. Moreover the F-35 is not regarded a high end fighter like the F/A-22 so I feel that we will definitely acquire some from 2014 onwards, keeping in mind that the F-15T is meant as an A-4SU replacement and not a F-5S/T replacement.
Even acquiring a fleet of 40 F-15T will just about be sufficient to replace the now withdrawn fleet of 82 A-4SU Skyhawks. Expecting the 40 new planes to also cover the duties of 53 F-5S/T would be stretching them a little too much won't it? i.e Replacing 135 warplanes with only 40 new ones? This would result in a sharp fall in the critical numbers required for us to maintain a truly effective fighting force.
Also we will maybe not buy F/A-22 due to the very very high cost of the Raptor. Like what LazerLordz had say, even UK's not getting them. A report I'd read says that in Asia, only Japan can afford to buy those planes, but at a limited quantity. So I dun think Singapore will be buying the raptor, though I personally will want to see it with the lion head on it. Unless the Singapore dollar is going so strong that US$1 = S$1... Comments? -
Sqn 142 is likely to take the F-15Originally posted by insouciant:Don't be surprised if we get a mix of F15Ts and F16 (maybe in the E variant?) to replace the F5. Yeah, 20 F15Ts is probably for the short haul, we'll probably get another 20 F15Ts.
Also remember, we still have an entire squadron of F16s in the US. When they return, they will probably take up a retired A4 squadron number.
F-5 replacement might be looking at JSF -
The F-35 is not strictly carrier launched.
There would be a 3 variants of the F-35, one for the airforce, one for the navy and one for the marines and UK. The Marines/UK variant is likely to be the V/STOL version.
If I remember correctly, last I read on the papers was that RSAF wanted to replace the F-16s with the F-35s. -
Looking forward the F-35Originally posted by Shotgun:The F-35 is not strictly carrier launched.
There would be a 3 variants of the F-35, one for the airforce, one for the navy and one for the marines and UK. The Marines/UK variant is likely to be the V/STOL version.
If I remember correctly, last I read on the papers was that RSAF wanted to replace the F-16s with the F-35s. -
then the F-15T is replacing both the skyhawk and the F-5?Originally posted by Shotgun:The F-35 is not strictly carrier launched.
There would be a 3 variants of the F-35, one for the airforce, one for the navy and one for the marines and UK. The Marines/UK variant is likely to be the V/STOL version.
If I remember correctly, last I read on the papers was that RSAF wanted to replace the F-16s with the F-35s. -
F-15T is more of replacing SkyhawksOriginally posted by sgFish:then the F-15T is replacing both the skyhawk and the F-5? -
Correct.The C should be a V/STOL version which is for the Marines and the Carrier.Not the usual catapult launch version.Originally posted by Shotgun:The F-35 is not strictly carrier launched.
There would be a 3 variants of the F-35, one for the airforce, one for the navy and one for the marines and UK. The Marines/UK variant is likely to be the V/STOL version.
If I remember correctly, last I read on the papers was that RSAF wanted to replace the F-16s with the F-35s.