Vastergotland-class submarines with AIP
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ST today:
The Republic of Singapore Navy's (RSN) four Challenger-class submarines are the oldest boats in the navy. These subs were built for the Royal Swedish Navy in 1968.
Mindef said it may buy two Vastergotland-class submarines, built in the early 1980s, as possible replacements for some of the Challengers.
Swedish newspapers have said the deal could be worth one billion Swedish kronor (S$220 million
). The Vastergotland subs, named after a county in Sweden, will be refurbished before they are sold.
'The Swedish Navy is planning to stand down two of its submarines of the Vastergotland class,' said a Defence Ministry spokesman. 'Mindef is now considering whether this might provide the RSN an opportunity to enhance its submarine capabilities by replacing some of its Challenger-class submarines with the Vastergotland-class submarines.'
Three of the Challengers have been commissioned into RSN service, leaving the fourth, RSS Challenger, yet to be declared ready for operations.
Mindef noted that it has had 'a long cooperative relationship with Sweden in the area of submarines'.
It said it purchased the Challenger-class submarines 'for training and experience in operating submarines'.
Defence analysts said the Vastergotlands would give the RSN's submarine force more punch, as the subs have been fitted with a new kind of engine called 'air independent propulsion'. This engine allows the sub to stay underwater longer.
Challenger subs, on the other hand, are powered by electric batteries while underwater to ensure the boats are silent and hard to detect.
But the batteries need recharging every few days using the diesel engines. The motors are noisy and, to use them, the submerged sub needs to raise a snorkel so the engines can operate.
I think the price with AIP is very cheap. -
wad's the normal price of a sub with AIP comparable to the Vastergotland-class sub? And i'm curious to know how much did RSN pay for the 4 Challenger-class subs too.
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AIP for that price, i think we are getting a bargain......
Any comments;
singapore is very good in getting good bargains, when purchasing overseas hardwares.. the F-16s, the 15s and now the subs (not to mentions smaller purchases). -
If Singapore does acquire the two A17 (Vastergotland) SSKs then it the next logical step would be 2 or 3 new-build SSKs based on the A19 (Gotland) class or perhaps the Viking class. My guess is that the French Scorpene and German Type 214 also under evaluation would have slimmer chances winning future orders from the RSN.
IMO,logically upgrade the Challenger Class sub with AIP.Anyway if RSN decided that we should own more sub i thought its an excellent idea. Getting our submarine violating sea boundaries wont cause any political out-cry cos our neighbours might never realise that she is in their water.
Again IMO, Project Viking will be a failure. Since the Norwegians withdrawn while Danish decided in June 2003 to cease funding the project in its 2005-09 Defense Plan.
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I dun think the amount paid for those 4 Challenger class SSKs was ever revealed, given that they were subject to a full refurbishment and the addition of classified systems which would have raised the cost considerably.Originally posted by ProudlySingaporean:wad's the normal price of a sub with AIP comparable to the Vastergotland-class sub? And i'm curious to know how much did RSN pay for the 4 Challenger-class subs too. -
I think the cost also includes the "training cost" in which the swedes teach us how to operate subs....
i think a total of 6x SSKs is really quite a lot for a SEA Navy. Don't u think so? -
However, I think that we are getting a much better deal than a lot of other naval force. For S$220mil, you get 2 sub with AIP. Despite that these 2 subs are already 20years old, it is still ahead of a lot of PLAN Ming sub and Song Sub in the region. Esp the swedish sub is famous for her stealth features, even able to penetrate the USN carrier group defences in exercises.
Of course, there will still be some critics who will say that we garlang kunei other's people 2nd hand junk. There would also be some people busy show casing their best most advance scopene subs after 2009 as well.
I personally agredd with our armed forces policy on focusing on best value for bucks. A lot of people tends to oversee there are critical compoents that made up a good weapon system. Eg our delta class frigate is a good buy; as we gain access into stealth tech, advance radar and fire control systems and combat mission systems. In addition, maintaining a strong defence needs $$ and tech. In the future, we will see more force multiplying technologies available to us through our active participation in R&D. Advance robotic USV Unmanned Surface Vessel is a good example for this type of tech. -
Actually we have been talking about the sale since Nov last year. 8 pages of discussions
http://militarynuts.com/index.php?showtopic=200&st=0 -
Anyone can provide the article please?
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About the retro fitting, do we have the capability to upgrade subs? What would happen if we added an AIP extension to the challengers? And why not fit some form of VLS systems too? BUt I am not sure if the challenger class and actually fit that.
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I dun think we will be upgrading the old Challenger class to AIP, in fact there are report( could be found in new forum) that after the purchase of the 2 AIP Västergotland class i.e. Södermanland class boats , 2 of the Challenger will retired or maybe one will relegeted to training sub status.
Here a pix of Västergötland class beside the longer AIP Södermanland class:
For those who not sure what I am talking abt, the Södermanland class boats are from original non upgraded Västergotland class, after the upgrades it has been renamed as Södermanland class .
Here the link abt the upgrades:
http://www.kockums.se/Submarines/sodermanland.html -
actually other then the 4x LSTs and 4x MCMs, all our Sqns have six vessels...
maybe the 2x new SSKs will make us have a 6 vessels for a full SQN? -
Up to now, I can't understand why we need FOUR "training" subs.
I don't think any of the subs will be retired. they are only back in Sgp for a few years....
It will be a big hooha to retire them so soon. -
MINDEF is very ks. They believe that quantity is quality. That's why we also have 60 F16s and I won't be surprised if we'll eventually have 40 F15T.Originally posted by spencer99:Up to now, I can't understand why we need FOUR "training" subs.
I don't think any of the subs will be retired. they are only back in Sgp for a few years....
It will be a big hooha to retire them so soon. -
so no more project viking liao?
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Well, the 2 AIP boats will not coming back so soon, it take perhaps 2 years for the upgrades(one per year), so delivery should be around 2008, 4 yrs training over in Sweden as reported in Swedish press, so they will be coming back around 2012 .Originally posted by spencer99:Up to now, I can't understand why we need FOUR "training" subs.
I don't think any of the subs will be retired. they are only back in Sgp for a few years....
It will be a big hooha to retire them so soon.
By then , the RSS Challenger ( the first boat) will be abt 15 yrs old after the retrofit in 1997, so it could last at most another 5 years unless going thru another retrofit.
Anyway, I hope that RSN will eventually keep 2 of the latest batch of Challanger boats plus 2 new AIP boats as operational boats, one of the older Challenger boat as a training subs when we start our own sub training school.
The oldest RSS Challenger could be use as spares. -
Not really.Originally posted by foga:so no more project viking liao?
Boats Relaunched year
Challenger 1997
Conqueror 1999
Centurion 1999
Chieftain 2001
So in 2015, we have to think abt whether to retrofit some of the Challenger class boats becos they are going toward 20 yrs of svc, or buy new boats.
Both need to spend money anyway, but which one will be more cost effective?? -
The training of the crew and refurbishing of the sub can be done concurrently...so therefore we might see it in sg waters earlier...maybe earlier before the scorpenes deliver to m'sia...the 4 yrs of trg might be reduced as sg is now experience with sub operation and therefore the learning curve might be shorten....just need to know the advance features of the VGD sub as compared when we 1st started with sub where we know nuts about it where sub safety is the primary concern compared with sub ops....
The AIP used whether be it be Striling engine or Fuel cell or other AIPs such as CCD ( Close circuit diesel), MESA....is still unknown...but most likely we might follow the Swede use Stirling Engine since we are being trained by them....A study hase been done on these AIPs and found that Fuel Cell has the best efficency at around 60%....The Fuel Cell is currently used on U212 and U214.... -
Well, according to Swedish report, the deal include 4 years training at Karlskrona, so it most probably last so long , and yes we could start training earliar since the Swedish navy already has two similar upgraded Vgd boats around, we might have them 1 or both back by 2010 fully operational!!!Originally posted by riken1974:The training of the crew and refurbishing of the sub can be done concurrently...so therefore we might see it in sg waters earlier...maybe earlier before the scorpenes deliver to m'sia...the 4 yrs of trg might be reduced as sg is now experience with sub operation and therefore the learning curve might be shorten....just need to know the advance features of the VGD sub as compared when we 1st started with sub where we know nuts about it where sub safety is the primary concern compared with sub ops....
The AIP used whether be it be Striling engine or Fuel cell or other AIPs such as CCD ( Close circuit diesel), MESA....is still unknown...but most likely we might follow the Swede use Stirling Engine since we are being trained by them....A study hase been done on these AIPs and found that Fuel Cell has the best efficency at around 60%....The Fuel Cell is currently used on U212 and U214....
MY's Scorpene only start delivery in end of 2009 and 2010, let say 2 years to reach operational status, i.e. 2012.
As for the type of AIP, Kockums could actually offer us 2 types of AIP, Stirling or HDW's H2 fuel cell AIPs since HDW owns Kockums now.
But cost wise, I believe the Stirling will be cheaper becos it has been done before on the Swedish Vgd boats, HDW's H2 fuel cell AIP I think is more expensive and we have to pay for development cost for the integration of H2 fuel cell AIP on Vgd boat which has not done before.
Anyway Sodermanland class are using the latest Stirling Mk3 AIP, which is more advance than the one in the Gotland which are the Mk2 version. -
Breakthrough in Japan for Stirling AIP-- Air Independent Propulsion
Submarines equipped with Stirling AIP systems can expand the submerged endurance, thus avoiding to expose its position. This enables the Stirling AIP submarine to counter the threat scenario much more effectively compared to a conventional diesel-electric submarine.
---2005-07-11
2.Details of AIP
The principle of the Stirling AIP system.The systems offers an alternative to battery power, which in turn means less frequent requirements for noisy battery recharging, with the diesel generators.
Instead of a number of days, a Stirling AIP submarine can extend the time submerged to weeks and thus outperform any other conventional submarine with regard to that key capability - submerged endurance.
Outstanding advantages
The main feature of the Kockums air independent propulsion (AIP) system is the use of Stirling engines burning pure oxygen and diesel fuel in a pressurized combustion chamber.
The combustion pressure is higher than the surrounding seawater pressure, thereby allowing the exhaust products, dissolved in seawater, to be discharged overboard without using a compressor.
Oxygen is stored in liquid form (LOX) in cryogenic tanks. Submerged endurance is primarily determined by the amount of stored LOX.
A Stirling unit being moved into the open hull of a Gotland class submarine. -
heard you can buy a whiskey for US 240,000.
buy 1, then remove the internal guts and turn it into another casino or disco then my weekends got more meimei to see
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Vastergotland-class has been re-named Sodermanland due to a modernization program applied to the remaining boats
In addition to the Stirling AIP, the Sodermanland submarines have been fitted to undertake missions in warmer and more saline waters than those surrounding Sweden. This goal has been achieved replacing the refrigeration system by an entirely new one.
more on AIP
Only Sodermanland--1989.and Ostergotland--1990 are in active service.
The Ostergotland submarine equipped with Stirling AIP-air independent propulsion system was delivered to the Swedish Navy in October 2004.
Specifications
Crew 20
Length 60.5 m 198-ft
Max Speed 20 kts
Full Displacement 1,500 tons
Number of Weapons 18
Span 6.1 m 20-ft
Torpedo Tubes 9
Equipment
Powerplant Stirling AIP
The Sodermanland-class, like the Vastergotland-class, has 6x 533mm torpedo tubes and 3x400mm torpedo tubes and can accommodate up to 18 torpedoes or 22 mines.
3.The moderniation programme seem tailor make for Sg!
The small no. of crew of 20 just fit this tiny red dot country.
Oh!She gets 9 Torpedo Tubes.A very impressive feature .It can mount a massive attack to few targets in a short period of time.
4.see how Vastergotland-class is converted to Stirling AIP
Yes,u are right.
To cut a submarine in two and install a new hull section is a complicated process.Any submarine can be converted
Submerged endurance-----Weeks -
Like Austin Powers - would you like to see my submarine? its long, hard and full of sea men??Originally posted by KumSioJui:heard you can buy a whiskey for US 240,000.
buy 1, then remove the internal guts and turn it into another casino or disco then my weekends got more meimei to see -
Thats a good one!
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Singapore considers purchase of Swedish submarines
By Richard Scott
Sweden and Singapore are believed to be close to concluding a deal for the transfer of two Type A 17 Västergötland-class submarines to the Republic of Singapore Navy (RSN).
Negotiations between Sweden's Defence Material Administration (FMV) and Singapore's Defence Science and Technology Agency have been under way for several months. Local media reports in Sweden suggest that Västergötland and Hälsingland - to be retired early from the Royal Swedish Navy (RSwN) as a result of cutbacks in submarine force levels - will be transferred as part of a sales agreement valued at about SEK1 billion (USD128 million).
The package is expected to include modernisation refits prior to delivery incorporating the addition of a Stirling air-independent propulsion (AIP) system.
Sweden sold four Type A 14 submarines to Singapore in the mid-1990s under projects Riken I and Riken II. Now operational with the RSN as the Challenger class, these 36-year-old boats have given the service its first experience of submarine operations.
159 of 426 words
http://www.janes.com/defence/naval_forces/news/jni/jni051006_1_n.shtml