Heavy Machine Guns
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Whats the differences between the US 0.5 Browning which they are still using since WW2 and our ST 0.5 HMG? Anyone here have personally fired them before?
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Well for one, i guess is the ability to have dual feed. The CIS 0.5 can use two differnt types of 0.5 ammunition whereas the browning can only have one. The other IMHO is weight. There are some other differences but i'll leave that to the others.
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Something about maintenance problems with the old M2. *shrugs*
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How about doing the head space timing for the old 0.5
Really difficult and time consuming to perform that.
If i am not wrong, the new CIS 0.5 don't need to do that when changing barrel. -
Could it be that the newer HMG have the ability to change barrel should it overheat due to prolonged firing while the older Browning is unable to do so?
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our own CIS 50 HMG enables us to change barrel when overheated faster and with greater ease...
I can ask mi colleagues abt it when i get back to camp... -
The browning aint? Damn even the MG42 could do that heheOriginally posted by tankee1981:Could it be that the newer HMG have the ability to change barrel should it overheat due to prolonged firing while the older Browning is unable to do so? -
Well basically no one did much in upgrading the 0.5 much. ST saw the nickel in that gap and went in for it.Originally posted by tankee1981:Whats the differences between the US 0.5 Browning which they are still using since WW2 and our ST 0.5 HMG? Anyone here have personally fired them before?
ST 0.5 offer lots of more advantage
1) it have much few parts - less jam & easier maintenance.
2) 2 ammo belt feed, which gunner use switch to select which belt to use, advantage, gunner can more effectively use the type of ammo suitable for that situation, like sabo to soft armour and normal for infantry. Also reduce need to reload so fast.
3) More range and more accurate.
4) able to change barrel. -
If the admin finds that I disclosed sensitive information, please edit or delete my reply.
I have personally handled both weapons during the NSF and reservist day......
Handled the Browning 0.5" during NSF day, the weapon was a beast to carry, just the body is closed to 18kg!!! Imagine carrying that yourself to the M113 which is 1 km away....(old SOA and vehicle shed)..............'93
To prep the weapon is also troublesome, head space and timing "Go, No Go, Go, No Go" must be done else the weapon cannot fire and may even encounter chamber explode if handle improperly. Everytime you change the barrel, you must redo the head space and timing.........depending on your proficiency, can take 5 mins to 10 mins......must be done by 2 persons. 1 do the head space timing, the other insert the barrel and turn the barrel.......
Bloody lot of parts to clean and if not careful, will cut yourself or lose somet parts........ also RUST easily!!!!!!!
Was trained on the ST HMG during 1st ICT.....Ultra conversion in '97
The weapon is lighter, can be carry by a person. No need to do head space and timing.
Switching of barrel is a breeze. Pull back charging handle slightly, press barrel release catch and pull out the barrel. vice versa for putting back the barrel.
Cleaning/maintence, stripping and assembly is also a breeze.......... less parts to handle....... placed on the fixed pinter of the Ultra cupola, the weapon is BLOODY accurate!!!!! See the round hitting the oil drums continously...sibeh shiok!!!!!
As to 2 ammo belt feed, I dont remember seeing that.......in Ultra........
On the cupola, 2 ammo chute, 1 for the 0.5" HMG and the other for AGL....maybe dual feed ammo are for other uses.......airforce or navy...??
For the old 0.5, there are many types of ammo, ball round, AP, API etc etc.....differeiated by the coloured rings on the projectiles....
During L/F in Singapore, we fired only ball round. In Oz, we fired API and our battlion burnt off half of our L/F area ('93)
As I remember during the conversion, this new 0.5 only has one type of ammo. That is the SLAP round........shaped like tank's SABOT round.......never fired this round before but our instructors said that this rounds can easily destroy soft skin targets, sand bunker and concrete bunker. This ammo are only issue during op.....LF only fires normal ball rounds. You can also use this ammo to stab a person to death........is desperate...........
For all potential VC/PC/PS, please remember now you have great firepower(2x40/50, 1xOWS and two tanks), you can now destroy enemy by fire follow by a mounted assaults to clean up enemy. Please dont anyhow dismount troops and asked them to flank 3-4 klicks to clear enemys!!!!!
Unless exercise play........
[quote]Originally posted by storywolf:
[b]
Well basically no one did much in upgrading the 0.5 much. ST saw the nickel in that gap and went in for it.
ST 0.5 offer lots of more advantage
1) it have much few parts - less jam & easier maintenance.
2) 2 ammo belt feed, which gunner use switch to select which belt to use, advantage, gunner can more effectively use the type of ammo suitable for that situation, like sabo to soft armour and normal for infantry. Also reduce need to reload so fast.
3) More range and more accurate.
4) able to change barrel. -
Sounds bloody awesome.Originally posted by Slywong:For the old 0.5, there are many types of ammo, ball round, AP, API etc etc.....differeiated by the coloured rings on the projectiles....
During L/F in Singapore, we fired only ball round. In Oz, we fired API and our battlion burnt off half of our L/F area ('93)
10 years ago, I still see M-113s on excercise at Sungei Gedong that had the old Browning, no cupola, just a gun on a tank mount. Even when firing blanks, it sounded like a mini cannon. I also saw some with the cupola with the 40/50 combo. These setups uses the new CIS-made guns. Massive firepower combination.
As a former infantryman I must say the rumbling of approaching tanks does make for a rather nervous feeling. I'd hate to be sitting in a trench waiting to be attacked by enemy armour. -
agree.Originally posted by tvdog:Sounds bloody awesome.
10 years ago, I still see M-113s on excercise at Sungei Gedong that had the old Browning, no cupola, just a gun on a tank mount. Even when firing blanks, it sounded like a mini cannon. I also saw some with the cupola with the 40/50 combo. These setups uses the new CIS-made guns. Massive firepower combination.
As a former infantryman I must saw the rumbling of approaching tanks does make for a rather nervous feeling. I'd hate to be sitting in a trench waiting to be attacked by enemy armour.
somemore i heard 40/50 is anti personnel
not forgetting the gpmg by the side.
anti armour leave to tanks n 25mm
imagine u r being shot be a .5 gun
awesome
ya man... imagine the amount of noise made my the veh in a combat team.
Ground oso shake.
Like waiting to die... but arty worse -
Before I was introduced to the 25mm OWS, I thot that 0.5 HMS was the biggets gun and very loud (minus 75mm tank or 84 RR)......
After introduced to the 25mm Bushmaster, comparing 0.5 and 25mm OWS, the sound made by 0.5 is like a pea shooter........
0.5 HMG......ta-ta-ta-ta..............ta-ta-ta-ta..............
25mm Canon.........BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM(5 rounds burst)................... BAM-BAM-BAM(3 rounds burst)..........
Accoring to TSR, when firing 25mm cannon, you must wear ear plug ontop of CVC helmet.
0.5 CVC can liao........
25mm got 2 types of ammo, AP and HE round. VC are to choose depending on engagement. Default is HE.Originally posted by tvdog:Sounds bloody awesome.
10 years ago, I still see M-113s on excercise at Sungei Gedong that had the old Browning, no cupola, just a gun on a tank mount. Even when firing blanks, it sounded like a mini cannon. I also saw some with the cupola with the 40/50 combo. These setups uses the new CIS-made guns. Massive firepower combination.
As a former infantryman I must say the rumbling of approaching tanks does make for a rather nervous feeling. I'd hate to be sitting in a trench waiting to be attacked by enemy armour. -
Not much effect when u get hit by the .50 cal gun.Originally posted by I_love_my_toilet:agree.
somemore i heard 40/50 is anti personnel
not forgetting the gpmg by the side.
anti armour leave to tanks n 25mm
imagine u r being shot be a .5 gun
awesome
ya man... imagine the amount of noise made my the veh in a combat team.
Ground oso shake.
Like waiting to die... but arty worse
Weapon velocity too high. Its meant to punch armor, not flesh, hence will do very little tissue damage.
For anti-personnel, they got the coaxial, 7.62 rounds, more effective. -
Oh?Originally posted by Shotgun:Not much effect when u get hit by the .50 cal gun.
Weapon velocity too high. Its meant to punch armor, not flesh, hence will do very little tissue damage.
If someone gets hit in the head by a .5, I don't think there'll be much of a head left. -
A 5.56 ball from M-16 will still do more tissue damage compared to a SLAP round from a HMG.
Can ask ur warrants if u dun believe me. -
i have mentioned in this forum of 0.50 and Ultimax 100
Sg has the guts to search for better weapons to replace well known weapons and asked for foreign talents to help.The survival of the nation and the fire power of SAF are far more important than national pride.Sg dunt take the
effectiveness of well known weapons for granted.They dared to develop
a better one to replace the icons,eg Browning 0.50 M2HB machine gun
in 1980's and M16 in 1999.
New products ,for examples, are Ultimax 100 / CIS 50 machine guns and SAR 21 rifle,a new generation rifle.http://www.stengg.com/CoyCapPro/detail.aspx?pdid=133
I read somewhere that
Ultimax 100 machine gun(still holds the record for being the lightest 5.56mm calibre machine gun in the world) was designer by a foreigner.
2.CIS 50 MG Machine Gun and AC Cormack
Janes Infantry Weapons 2004/05 says:
Also mention SLAP in
In late 1983,AC Cormack leaded a team to develop a machine gun to replace the then well known Browning 0.50 M2HB machine gun which .... with defects.Another objective was to fire Sg produced
Saboted Light Armour Penetrator (SLAP) Tracer rounds
http://www.stengg.com/CoyCapPro/detail.aspx?pdid=135
3.Why SG needed to replace Browning 0.50 M2HB in 1980's?
You can find a lot of praises for this gun in the net ,egTHE BROWNING M2HB is quite simply one of the greatest machine guns ever designed, being efficient and very effective; easy to use and to maintain;
fr http://www.gunplot.net/armoury/fiftycal.html
However,In M2HB, every barrel replacement must be followed with time-consuming procedure of headspace and timing ajustment, and only relatively recently QCB (Quick Change Barrel) kits were introduced.
fr
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg04-e.htm .Similiar to Janes' mentioned defects.
4.Dunt be too sceptical to ST's effort
Too many found ST too busy body to develope too much stuff,for the sake of share holders' interest.Pl do some homeworks before make ur comments.]
5.Our frens here confirmed the weakness of BROWNING M2HB .Cheers we have tried our best to get a better weapons. -
the M2 Browning is a very very very old design..... not really fair to compair it with our CIS 0.5 HMG.
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There are photos on the Internet which shows heads blown off by a .50 round. There is even one I saw with a body cut in half by multiple hits.Originally posted by Shotgun:Not much effect when u get hit by the .50 cal gun.
Weapon velocity too high. Its meant to punch armor, not flesh, hence will do very little tissue damage.
For anti-personnel, they got the coaxial, 7.62 rounds, more effective. -
This is what you said earlier:Originally posted by Shotgun:A 5.56 ball from M-16 will still do more tissue damage compared to a SLAP round from a HMG.
Can ask ur warrants if u dun believe me.
"Not much effect when u get hit by the .50 cal gun.
Weapon velocity too high. Its meant to punch armor, not flesh, hence will do very little tissue damage."
These are all just your theories, isn't it?
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wahahaa ya manOriginally posted by Slywong:Before I was introduced to the 25mm OWS, I thot that 0.5 HMS was the biggets gun and very loud (minus 75mm tank or 84 RR)......
After introduced to the 25mm Bushmaster, comparing 0.5 and 25mm OWS, the sound made by 0.5 is like a pea shooter........
0.5 HMG......ta-ta-ta-ta..............ta-ta-ta-ta..............
25mm Canon.........BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM(5 rounds burst)................... BAM-BAM-BAM(3 rounds burst)..........
Accoring to TSR, when firing 25mm cannon, you must wear ear plug ontop of CVC helmet.
0.5 CVC can liao........
25mm got 2 types of ammo, AP and HE round. VC are to choose depending on engagement. Default is HE.
25mm sound really deafening
Once i got "shot at" when i played enemy during exercise.
3 rd burst... damn loud n scary... somemore blanks only
heart beat damn fast after that...
25mm power
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Waaa really ah ?Originally posted by Shotgun:Not much effect when u get hit by the .50 cal gun.
Weapon velocity too high. Its meant to punch armor, not flesh, hence will do very little tissue damage.
For anti-personnel, they got the coaxial, 7.62 rounds, more effective.
.5 cal round is 12.0 something mm leh
2 X compared to 5.56mm round.
.5 cal only enuff to tickle enemy armour nia.
At most can destroy the tracks... i think
Shoot personnel n soft skinned veh best ! -
Well, if u wanna cut someone in half with rapid firing rate with a .50cal, then I got nothing to say. If enuff bullets hit a person no matter armor piercing or not... also will die.
But I believe, rather than zuah a person with 30over .50cal rounds, a short burst from a 7.62 would do the job.
Btw, this is not my theory. This was told to me by a 1st Warrant from Armor. Personally, I rather not be on the recieving end to test it.
However, let me give u an example. In mogadishu, the US Rangers engaged the "skinnys" with carbide tipped 5.56 rounds, a tougher round for piercing body armor. They often see their targets get hit, but stand up to run away, and it took several more hits to knock them down for good.
Simply cos the round was hard, and did not fragment upon impact with flesh, and had the velocity to fly right thru, leaving little tissue damage. And thats from the muzzle velocity of an M-16 only.
Imagine the muzzle velocity for the HMG, and the toughness of the SLAP round which is meant to penetrate LIGHT armored vehicles. How much tissue damage u think it can cause?
It is not a theory.
Some of the photos u've seen of people getting blasted by .50cal rounds, are probably fired from a Light fifty sniper rifle. THAT causes extensive tissue damage cos those rifles use different rounds. Those rounds have a softer core compared to the tungsten sabot of a SLAP round. I think just the impact will cause severe internal bleeding alr... -
Many countries including advance ones like US and Australia still use the Browning despite its apparent short comings as compared to newer weapons such as our ST product. Surely there must be some advantages for using this WW2 weapon.
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i got abook on us weapons which said m2 was in 1930 and a upgard to m2 hb(hydraulic buffre) in late 1930. it can be use on aircraft at a range of 750m.
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2.I do hope they have really good reasons to use the M2HB.I do not say ST 0.50 is perfect.When a weapon or syetem got some drawbacks ,we need to find ways to improve it.If the proposed version in overall is better than the existing,then we should replace the old one by new one.I emphasis overall.There are many items to compare/consider in each weapon.We need wise men to decide which is better in overall performance.Do not pin point on some features and forget there are many pro and con need to consider.M16 and SAR 21 is a classical example of comparsion.Originally posted by tankee1981:Many countries including advance ones like US and Australia still use the Browning despite its apparent short comings as compared to newer weapons such as our ST product. Surely there must be some advantages for using this WW2 weapon.
3.US is very advanced in big systems.It does not mean what they decide in small weapons must be wise and correct.The Senators etc appeal to Bush to keep the factory of M16 to make M16.They do not care the need of their country.The money and pride involved in the decisions of military weapons,not just the need of armedd force.
4.Based on the experiences expressed in this thread,wld u choose M2HB or ST 0.50 to fight?
5.The wise US Army made orders totaling $10.6 million for U.S. Army Tank Automotive Command for the production of 526 M2HB machine guns and 2,000 barrels General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products.
6.Any one can share what is the current versions of M2HB?Any improvement made?How is it compared with ST's CIS 50 MG?
7.Spec of M2HB (Enhanced) and ST's CIS 50 MG When did they field Enhanced version?