Compare SAF to ROK
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My Korean friend burst out in laughter when i said that Koreans are tougher and more patriotic than Singaporeans.
There are few reasons my friend explained to me.
Firstly, NS is extremely unpopular in Korean due to lots of abuses be superiors, high suicides, high accident rates, poor conditions and some even defect to the north or are kidnapped.
Secondly, ROK was more or less a repressive police state even till the 1980s. My friend even told me about how her account was taken away by the Military police overnight because he had talked about protesting in front of the blue house.
Thus, people don't hold the military with high esteem and think that it is very dirty and full of social outcasts.
Thirdly, a lot of the people are always trying to escape NS in Korea. There are a few ways to do so. The most popular is to tattoo yourself as tattooed people are not allowed in the military. Next, if you are rich, take an overseas degree and never come back. In korea, NS can be served when you are 20+.
Anyway, its no big deal that most korean males are black belts. This is because it is compulsory to take taekwondo in school for PE anyway.
In any case, i have met Koreans who think that the SAF is tougher than their ROK soldiers. The reason they give me is always the same. They say that Singapore is so warm and humid, Jungle training is just about the toughest kind of training in the world. IN korea, they train in cool temperatures and do not need to sweat so much. -
its difficult to compare two armies in two very different areas. My Korean friends here cannot tahan the heat and humidity and our guys would be frozen to korea when they go to korea in the winter.
Koreans are trained to fight in high open(with no trees covering) mountain or on plains and they are equipped with heavy artillery and heavy tanks. We fight in build up areas and tropical jungle.
we know we are stronger than our likely enemies in quality and quantity in terms of hardware and we even have numerical superiority in strength in one case. The Korean have to face north korean, outnumber them in strength (of course everyone black belt), and also superior in numbers of hardware.
South Koreans youngsters are also growing up in comfortable environment like us. A hell of a lot more comfortable compared to the north koreans.
My experience with my guys during NS is like this. In camp everybody kao bei kao bu, dont do this and avoid that. But during live firing exercise, when real bullets fly, they are the most responsive and cooperative guys I know, especially compared to colleagues in private companies.
So when, there is a real war, when bullets fly, guys who stay are guys who cannot migrate or had no chance to take the last flight. I believe we are good enough! It is also fortunate that we will not be fighting against the north koreans.
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Our humid heat would kill them, their sub-zero cold will kill us. We're even.Originally posted by zquek:My Korean friend burst out in laughter ...
There are few reasons my friend explained to me.
Firstly, NS is extremely unpopular in Korean due to lots of abuses be superiors, high suicides, high accident rates, poor conditions and some even defect to the north or are kidnapped.
Thirdly, a lot of the people are always trying to escape NS in Korea. There are a few ways to do so. The most popular is to tattoo yourself as tattooed people are not allowed in the military. Next, if you are rich, take an overseas degree and never come back. In korea, NS can be served when you are 20+.
Anyway, its no big deal that most korean males are black belts. This is because it is compulsory to take taekwondo in school for PE anyway.
In any case, i have met Koreans who think that the SAF is tougher than their ROK soldiers. The reason they give me is always the same. They say that Singapore is so warm and humid, Jungle training is just about the toughest kind of training in the world. IN korea, they train in cool temperatures and do not need to sweat so much.
Anyway, all that you have said only further proves the point that army service in Korea is very very tough. The fact that a whole nation of TKD black belt fellas are thinking of ways to get out of doing NS or killing themselves, says a lot. Those who don't escape or 'off' themselves during service must be one tough mofo. Or maybe they served as a clerk.
High accident rates, poor conditions, SOB superiors all make it sound like a real army.
I'm not saying SAF is not up to it. I'm saying it'll be a mistake to make NS any easier than it already is. -
Our jungle humidity is enough to sap the strength of any temperate army.
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I guess i have to agree.. singaporean soldiers are what i call thinking soldiers....my relatives used to tell me that NS now is slack and their time was tough... I totally agree with them but i always argue that we are a better and more efficient army nw. Singaporean soldiers know how to keng to get the job done. I don't think SAF wants a bunch of crazy rambos running around. they are focused on training our soldiers to get the job done.... by hook or by crook... :O)Originally posted by dkhoo:It's one thing to be garang, it's anothing thing to get the job done. Singaporean soldiers are not fierce. They do not burn with aggression. They also may not be the fittest soldiers in the world. However, if you give Singaporean soldiers a task to do, they will complete it, no matter how long it takes or how hard it is. They will learn what they need to learn, plan what needs to be done, adapt to the situation and finish the job. That is what matters in war -- mission success. -
Ever heard the joke (or is it a true story?) about the difference between SAF and Thai soldiers?Originally posted by forbes76:I guess i have to agree.. singaporean soldiers are what i call thinking soldiers....my relatives used to tell me that NS now is slack and their time was tough... I totally agree with them but i always argue that we are a better and more efficient army nw. Singaporean soldiers know how to keng to get the job done. I don't think SAF wants a bunch of crazy rambos running around. they are focused on training our soldiers to get the job done.... by hook or by crook... :O)
Thai soldiers think that we're invincible.
That's because when a Thai soldier hear a shot being fired, he'll dive for cover.
When a SAF soldier hear a shot being fired, he'll stand and wonder where the shot came from.
That's what I call thinking soldiers.
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Some people like to say SAF soldiers are "thinking soldiers".Originally posted by sgdiehard:My experience with my guys during NS is like this. In camp everybody kao bei kao bu, dont do this and avoid that. But during live firing exercise, when real bullets fly, they are the most responsive and cooperative guys I know, especially compared to colleagues in private companies.
Has anyone seen any evidence of that occurring in a positive way?
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This is so, so wrong...Originally posted by forbes76:I guess i have to agree.. singaporean soldiers are what i call thinking soldiers....my relatives used to tell me that NS now is slack and their time was tough... I totally agree with them but i always argue that we are a better and more efficient army nw. Singaporean soldiers know how to keng to get the job done. I don't think SAF wants a bunch of crazy rambos running around. they are focused on training our soldiers to get the job done.... by hook or by crook... :O)
If you've been in a rifle platoon and worked with the lads in there, you'd agree we're better off if they are NOT allowed to think. -
But you still got it done right, even if it was last minute?Originally posted by Tango12:Sorrie lor.Not all lor.If u c the logistic side, its a mess. All last min work.Anyhow do one.U tink other countries' soldiers cannot do it meh.I tink they can do it even better than our soldiers.Cos of their wills and strong mentality due to their hard lives and training.
That's what counts. Don't worry -- in war EVERYTHING will be last minute, so count it as training. Nothing needs to be pretty in war -- it just needs to be done. -
.ROK Marines training,claimed use human waste to wash face and eat without a box
use sshhiitt human waste to wash face?
from many new and old photos here.click each photo to see a group. -
Too be frank, I am quite sadden by the fact that our army is getting more and more soft as each day gets by. It is wide known fact that people with a proper discipline military training, tends to have a better disciplined and matured thinking compare to the those w/o any miltary training.
Malaysia has witnessed that usefulness in enforcing discipline into the male Sg citizens for the past decades. That is the reason why our neighbour decide to copy our model and implement it across the Johor Straits. Despite the fact that our Boleh friends are having some "minor" teething issue, due to some "unforeseeable" issues, they are very determined to let the Boleh National Service to stay. The Boleh gov officals are determined to use national service as a tool to enforce discipline in their youth and build up their characters.
Korea and Taiwan are two countries in Far East that have been implementing national service for the past 40 years at least. It is a known fact that all males in these 2 countries must be enrolled into the military services. The ROK and ROC training is much much more more SIONG than what we have in Burnei or Thailand campsites. The realities that the ROK and ROC are faciing hostilies, had sharpened the alertness of the soldiers, the disciplines are enforeced w/o question. When the soldiers left the military services, weather they will go into big company like Samsung and LG, or venture his own business or IT setup, their discipline and "never say die" mindset have helped them to achieve the best of the best in the age of globalization. Today, the Korean and Taiwanese are much more successful than we are. They have many more successful Fortune 500 companies and SMEs than Singapore.
It is a sad fact that Singaporean seems to be getting more and more soft. The education system in schools are more focusing in getting the grades than real education. The schools are more interested in displaying the "merits" in the banners hanging outside the schools. Nowadays, school kids discipline is real headache for many school. If our NS is also so soft, w/o a proper focus on discipline, then we will be the one who suffer later. Already, we have heard reports that Singaporeans are too "well taken care of", unable to take hardship, thinking of making big w/o much effort (easy way out). This is the gross product of our "Thinking Soldier" concept; always thinking and thinking, no action! Then, how to get results?? -
I don't know if SAF "thinking soldiers" are defined by the joke in earlier post. But I know in barracks soldiers think and "geng" like crazy, but in live firing exercises, when bullets fly, guys in my platoon suddenly stopped thinking anymore and just follow orders.Originally posted by tvdog:Some people like to say SAF soldiers are "thinking soldiers".
Has anyone seen any evidence of that occurring in a positive way?
During reservists time, our exercises were mainly bridging. All the men would not report sick but worked together and got our job done, because they knew that the job had to be done and the earlier it was done, the earlier we go home. In this case, the soldiers know how to think. I always have very happy reservist training because everybody know how to think. -
I disagree... a lot of them try to "siam" NS... do u know that they DO NOT enlist those who have physically issues or who have "tattoos" (links to underworld)...Originally posted by fedor86:True.
But I think the problem is the lack of "patriotism" in our citizens. NSF always think "Serve for what, waste my 2 years" or "The army don't need me la, I 2 push up also cannot do". They don't see the importance of serving NS. They don't see the threat Singapore is facing, they take security for granted and last but not least. do they even love our homeland? (I've yet to serve my NS)
While people from SK, from my understanding, they are kind of loyal to their country. Soldiers regconize that the threat is VERY real for them. Bitterness of the korean war are still very fresh in some of them.
They take pride in their job and they put in commitment and effort, this is possible because SK soldiers love their country and they regconize the threat they are facing.
In my opinion it all boils down to patriotism.
As such, I would think that their "pool" of men is more "elite"... for singapore NS, basically EVERYONE MUST serve... i saw one guy in a no. 3 uniform on the train... he is very skinny and face looked deformed... some kind of birth defect, i suspect he is pes e serving in service vocation.
As for patroitism...... a lot of them try to sian NS by getting overseas citizenship an dso on.... -
Err.. I thot PM Lee say : "We must continue to uphold this system of NS, maintain the rigorous standards of training, and upgrade the quality of the SAF year by year. "
So, who's right?
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2005/sep/06sep05_news.html