Section Automatic Weapon(SAW)
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We have been using the Ultimax 100 for quite some time. I have personal experience with it. I dare say that it is an accurate automatic weapon with little or no recoil. Other advantages includes that it is the lightest LMG in the world and it uses the same 5.56mm rounds used by the SAR21. My question is that will it be replaced by a SAW variant of SAR21? And how will it fare when compared to the Minimi used by both the US and Malaysia's military. Comments please.
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My experience with the U100 has been really good also! Except that now I have tried the M249B..
These are the advantage that the M249 has over our U100. it has a better feeding system, it can take belt fed , and std M16 mags ! howeve, I had bad luck using the M16mags .. it has higher rate of fire than our U100! So as a SAW, the higher ROF does help in supressing the enemy,... the M249 of course uses the M855 or SS109 amo which our U100 uses the lighter M193 ammo! thus not as effective at longer ranges. Our 100 rd drum is cumbersome to reload and don;t do very well when it is dirty... In my time I remeber it has to be loaded with a machine. the M249 has the picatinny rail so an Elcan, or optics can be easilt mounted.
Overall, altough most country uses the M249 or a version of it.... the ISreali developed somthing very similar, so is thenew HK SAW for the german army. Our U100 is unique, its light weight is a plus, if they can improve it to use belt fed , it would be a weapon 2nd to non!
DaveC -
Two things that count against the M249 are its weight and bulk - 7.1 kg as opposed to the Ultimax's 4.9 kg (both without ammo). If you're trying to keep the other guy's head down, I don't know how much difference 750 rpm makes as opposed to 600. If you wanted heavy firepower, you may as well make the jump up to a GPMG.
In terms of accuracy, the M855 and M193 ball rounds seem to demonstrate silimar groupings when fired at up to 500 mteres through an M16A2. From the following woubd profiles, the 855's additional 6.6 grains don't seem to make much of a difference either:
For what it was designed to be, the Ultimax is an excellent weapon. It's light and small enough to be easily carried by a section gunner humping a load of gear through the boonies, and given the average size of a Sinagporean section gunner, the difference between an Ultimax and an M249 would be well appreciated.
I don't know about belt feeding, but I'll certainly agree that the Ultimax's loading system could stand a fair amount of improvement, and I never cared much for that Tommy-gun style foregrip. Given the accuracy and low recoil of the Ultimax, a Picatanny rail would be a good addition to the design. -
Enlargement of top right hand corner.
Enlargement of top right hand corner. -
What are you pointing out, lion?
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In WW1 and WW2 the famous magazine-fed LMG/SAW LMGs were the Bren, Lewis or the Russian DP. The Bren also had a 100-round horizontal drum though these were rarely used.
The U100 seems to be the only modern SAW still using the mag-feed.
Everyone else has gone for a scaled-down GPMG SAW like the Minimi, Negev, SS77, K3 etc.
The U100 has the advantage of being light, low recoil etc. And I assume the drum magazine system is still easier for reloading under difficult conditions than the belt system.
However, with the drum system you still have to carry the empty drums with you. Do they weigh much?
With the Minimi there's nothing left but the canvas pouch after you've fired the belted-ammo.
Also, does anyone know which is lighter:
a U100 plastic drum with 100-rounds
or
a Minimi canvas pouch with a 100-round belt?
Here's the Russian DP converted from drum to belt-feed. Maybe we can do this with the U100?:
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Closest data is for 200 rounds: 3.14 kg (1 X 200-round box) for the M249 and 3.4 kg for the Ultimax (2 X 100-round drum).
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the wounding capability of the M193 to the m855 is differnt since the M855 wll go thru our old Steel hemet both ways at 600 meter! while the M193 would not ! the basic bullet design is dffernt. it is made for some penetration. and that gives the effective range of the M855 much longer than the M193. reason our M16A1 has effective range of 360 meter while the M6A2 is much higher.
On a M16A2 which posses a 1:7 twsit barrel, it wll not shoot the M193 well! infact pass 200 meter, the ammo go at random ! I can attest to that becasue we shoot the ammo on paper to see, and pass 200 ! it the barrel just would not stabalize . it needs to be of the heavier bullet weight.
The U100 would be much lighter in all ways to the M249! However, weight is not everything ... reason why most military adppted SAW with belt fed capability over drum!
The main diadavantage of drum comes from loading ammo onto it, U100 drum requires machine to load it, resuply of ammo is cumbersome in a logistic standpoint. reliability of drums has never been that great in the field. My time using the U100, if sand and crude gets into the drum, its difficult to clean. SO does the Beta Cmag use in Iraq ! it jams too much in the desert sand.. We use Russian and CHinese drums for the AK and RPK! same problems!
U100 has its advantage ! but there are a lot of disadvantage that makes it non adoptable in a lot of military forces!.
DaveC -
Dave, I agree that the 855's got better penetration because of the projectile core, but the design can be a disadvantage in certain situations such as Mogadishu, where it took a few shots to bring each guy down.
The 193's projectile weighs 55 grains while the 855's weighs 61.6 grains - why did you say the 193 is heavier?
Good points about the disadvantages of the drums - if CIS is palnning on any further development work on the Ultimax, the whole feed system needs to be thought through again. -
hi Gedanken
the M193 is lighter than the M855! 55 compareed to 62 grain! I must have phrase it wrong!! opps!
the problem in Mogodishu is that Delta guys are using 9" and 10.5" M16 which does not give the M855 the velocity to do its magic ! for most enegaement , even the M4 having that 14.5 " barrel is marginal in using the M855 becasue the velocity drop is trmendous comapred to a 20" barrel. Reason the Marine corp is staying with the 20" rifle instead of the shorter M4. I chrono a 11.5 " M16 with the M855 is only comming out at 2400 fps! thats far less than a 20" at 2950 to 3000 fps! thus the bullet wihout the velocity could not do the magic of the 223.!
FOr SAW , most of them are in the 20" , thus it would be good for the M855! I am not saying it is much better but it does the job better.... of course maybe in future they use the new 77 grain newer type of bullet ! it would help cope with the 5.56 problems we always face.
I am seeing the trend to go with short barrel like those new M249B! the HK G36, and XM8! these short barrel is kool and all ! but if they keep using the old ammo ! We are goin to see lots of problem!
I still like the Ultimax 100 ! Actually have a freind here in Dallas that bought a dealer sample U100 .... bring back good memories when firing it.. U100 is a rare commodity here in the US! Wish we can import those babies!
DaveC -
Come to think of it the SAF could slowly phase out the usage of the 1:12" barrels with 1:7"/1:9" and not have to change the ammunition since the M193 performs pretty much the same whether in a 1:12" or 1:7" barrel. And once the 1:12" barrels have been phased out the SAF can start using M855 rounds.
If I'm not wrong the M193 performs better than the M855 within the range of 100m, since it is more accurate and fragments more than the M855 under 100m. And since combat these days are said to occur below 150m the M193 is more than sufficent.
(Erm make sense? ) -
ST seems to have a 5.56ER (extended range) cartridge,
gents, check this out:
http://www.stengg.com/CoyCapPro/detail.aspx?pdid=144
a better performing cartridge without having to change the barrel's twist ? ..... 
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bust why they dont want to use the Steyr Aug..is it better than the SAW?
sry for multiple editing -
Bullpups are a pain in the a** to reload. Especially more so for LMG versions where you have to reload frequently if you only have 30-round mags.Originally posted by ceecookie:bust why they dont want to use the Steyr Aug..is it better than the SAW? -
but the only downside is that once u continuously fire more than 500 rounds of ammo the gun will suffer heat dmg.......
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I often wondered about the U100 drum system vs the Minimi belt-feed.
A little history lessons on development of mag-fed LMGs leading up to the Ultimax 100. Some are true LMGs while the BAR and the FG42 are merely battle rifles on speed.
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After all these years as an NCO, I am still wondering about the proper deployment of the SAW.
We all have this misquided notion that the SAW is capable of suppressive fire. It never was intended for that role. It does not have the sustainability or ammo feed - the platoon support GPMG needs.
The SAW was supposed to follow the section in fire and movement and not fire in a plunging fire mode ala GPMG. At best it can be described as a Heavy Barrel version of the SAR21.
Anyone can enlighten what SAFINCOS latest doctrine on the deployment of SAW is? -
i prefer the nuclear bomb ...
kaboom owned all weapons ... melting all metal and ammo -
would just like to ask the chaps around ... anyone used the 100 round drum mag before during service ? ....
the only time i've ever touched it was at the armskote of a certain overseas base ....
it has always been the 30round standard SAW mags with two lobangs eh ....
but if it's in the armskote someone must be drawing it every now and then .... -
That will only be used when the defeat of SG is imminent.Originally posted by reverant:i prefer the nuclear bomb ...
kaboom owned all weapons ... melting all metal and ammo
Only then we will see hidden arsenal.
then at least we'll perish together if we can't defend ourselves. -
instead of using the bomb to kill the enemy will the gov choose to use the bomb to self destruct the whole island?Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:That will only be used when the defeat of SG is imminent.
Only then we will see hidden arsenal.
then at least we'll perish together if we can't defend ourselves. -
The 30 round drum mag is supposedly kept for in times of war. Usual training 30 round mag with blanks gd enuff lah.Originally posted by Fatum:would just like to ask the chaps around ... anyone used the 100 round drum mag before during service ? ....
the only time i've ever touched it was at the armskote of a certain overseas base ....
it has always been the 30round standard SAW mags with two lobangs eh ....
but if it's in the armskote someone must be drawing it every now and then ....
Not much point loading up a 30 round drum with blanks. -
My friend, 100-round drum, not 30 round drum.Originally posted by insouciant:The 30 round drum mag is supposedly kept for in times of war. Usual training 30 round mag with blanks gd enuff lah.
Not much point loading up a 30 round drum with blanks.
The Ultimax drums were reported to fall out of the weapon easily. Must be the reason why they are not issued for training. The main strength of the Ultimax is also its weakness. In many WW2 mag-fed SAW including 3 of the examples I posted above, gravity must've been the reason why the magazines were often designed to be on top of the weapon. -
Yeah, we had a company live firing at Safti where we used the drums. Mind you, while we indented ammo for the whole company, two thirds of us were attached out to sports teams at the time, so the rest of us ended up having to expend everything. Got about 400 rounds on the Ultimax and 1000 on the GPMG, and I couldn't smell anything but Cordite for the next week.Originally posted by Fatum:would just like to ask the chaps around ... anyone used the 100 round drum mag before during service ? ....
the only time i've ever touched it was at the armskote of a certain overseas base ....
it has always been the 30round standard SAW mags with two lobangs eh ....
but if it's in the armskote someone must be drawing it every now and then ....
The drum sat more snugly in the Ultimax than the magazine did - I'm not too worried about it dropping off. For the old top-loading weapons like the Bren, the key design consideration was the ability to load the weapon without having to lift it up off the bipod - a mate of mine served in the British Army in the late 60's and used the Bren, and he loved the ability to change mags without having to move out of firing position. Gravity's got nothing to do with it - if the magazine/drum isn't seated properly, it wouldn't feed properly regardless of whether it was on top of or under the weapon. -
Yeah, they're coming up with a whole lot of shortened versions of weapons these days, and it's starting to go a bit far, as you've pointed out. The reduced lengths might be handy for jumps and FIBUA, but it seems to be moving away from the originally intended SAW role which requires the velocity that comes from longer barrels.Originally posted by davechng:hi Gedanken
the M193 is lighter than the M855! 55 compareed to 62 grain! I must have phrase it wrong!! opps!
the problem in Mogodishu is that Delta guys are using 9" and 10.5" M16 which does not give the M855 the velocity to do its magic ! for most enegaement , even the M4 having that 14.5 " barrel is marginal in using the M855 becasue the velocity drop is trmendous comapred to a 20" barrel. Reason the Marine corp is staying with the 20" rifle instead of the shorter M4. I chrono a 11.5 " M16 with the M855 is only comming out at 2400 fps! thats far less than a 20" at 2950 to 3000 fps! thus the bullet wihout the velocity could not do the magic of the 223.!
FOr SAW , most of them are in the 20" , thus it would be good for the M855! I am not saying it is much better but it does the job better.... of course maybe in future they use the new 77 grain newer type of bullet ! it would help cope with the 5.56 problems we always face.
I am seeing the trend to go with short barrel like those new M249B! the HK G36, and XM8! these short barrel is kool and all ! but if they keep using the old ammo ! We are goin to see lots of problem!
I still like the Ultimax 100 ! Actually have a freind here in Dallas that bought a dealer sample U100 .... bring back good memories when firing it.. U100 is a rare commodity here in the US! Wish we can import those babies!
DaveC
Given the reduced muzzle velocities, and in situations like Mogadishu where the enemy isn't weraing protective gear, perhaps projectiles that deform more easily would be the solution. That said, you'd probably have the Geneva convention to worry about then.