MLRS foR Singapore?
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s'pore so small, no need to upgrade this and that...if any country wants to attack us all it has to do is to get all of its pple to come to sg and pee...tell u what lor, sg will get flooded in just seconds
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After so many years of NE and NS it is regretable that we still have people who still believe in the we are small and will be flooded by pee or spit hypothesis....
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maybe he's a spy/sabotuer from up north ...Originally posted by tankee1981:After so many years of NE and NS it is regretable that we still have people who still believe in the we are small and will be flooded by pee or spit hypothesis.... 
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Do what the serbs did to counter US cruise missile. Construct nets as strategic locations to "Catch" Or interfere with the rocket's flight path.
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The ASTROS II launcher is capable of firing rockets of different calibers armed with a range of warheads.
In my uneducated opinion, the howitzer gun and the MLRS are not meant to replace each other. They may both do the same job, but they do it very differently.
The SS-30 rocket, caliber 127mm, can be loaded with 32 rounds per launcher and has a range between 9km and 30km.
The SS-40 rocket, caliber 180mm, can be loaded with 16 rounds per launcher and has a range between 15km and 35km.
The SS-60/SS-80 rocket, caliber 300mm, can be loaded with 4 rounds per launcher and has a range between 20km and 80km.
In terms of range, you can see the the bigger MLRS rockets have big range advantage over the howitzer.
(Of course, arty is more accurate.)
But the reason why the Germans in WW2 feared the Soviet rockets - called Stalin's Organs - is not range.
It's the sheer firepower of a rocket barrage.
One ASTROS MLRS launcher can fire off all 16 SS-40 180mm rockets within (estimated) 6 seconds.
So 10 MLRS launchers can impact a target with 160 rockets within 6 seconds!
10 155mm howitzer with 3-round burst capability can deliver only 30 rounds in the first 6 seconds.
The initial 6-second barrage will catch most people before they can take cover.
The MLRS will not have to reload and can move away to safety immediately after firing to escape counter fire or air attacks.
However, the howitzer is capable of accurate, sustained fire on an objective whereas the MLRS is more suited for one-time-only saturation of an area. This is because a MLRS takes forever to reload.
The Malaysians have the MLRS as it is a good weapon for destroying our airbases. I don't think they'll waste the expensive rockets on our HDB estates. The Malaysians may go to war with us but they are not terrorists.
I don't think SG need MLRS. What we need to figure out is an effective way of countering MLRS rockets after they are fired towards SG. -
I don't think SG need MLRS. What we need to figure out is an effective way of countering MLRS rockets after they are fired towards SG.
why bother?
even if you can block their rockets.. what about their arty shells and mortar shells?
might as well.. go for all out attrition counter bombardments with all the arty in our hands as well as sending our F-16s with FAE and CBUs to really mess them up.
instead of attempting to stop their fired rockets.... which we could but rather uneconomical... we should simply return the favour 10x over with our ICM, FAE, CBU, SOW, JSOW and watever UCAVs we got.
afterall... as someone already noted... rockets are rapid launch, but takes a long time to reload(plus expensive like hell to sustain), we should consider war as based on sustain firepower rather then a one shot shotgun blast.
over time... tube arty would still win out with their sustainability, cost effectiveness as well as accuracy over the rockets.
another point worth of note is that with the advent of radars, rockets are no longer that fearful.... they no longer comes unannounced, the modern radars would pick them up the second they are launched and rely that information to frontline forces as well as Civil defence units.
it takes the rockets approx. 2 minute to travel the full distance of 40km at speed of mach 1, which is more then enough time for singaporeans to go to their HS which is located in every HDB flats... or for soldiers to hit their respective SS.
the key thing is good coordination and rapid information rely to key nodes in the chain of command down to the respective platoons and companies over the approaching rockets, arty or inbound enemy aircrafts.
this requires good RMA and a good 3G armed forces equipped with the latest communication and command systems. -
Originally posted by tripwire:
I'm thinking about a very short engagement like the Six-Day War where in the opening hours, Israel completely destroyed the airforces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria. This single act alone ensured Israel's success as the Arabs lost many following land battles cos they had no air cover.
why bother?
Here's a possible scenario for SG and MY:
Tension between 2 countries. No one made the first moves yet besides verbal threats and general mobilisation and military build up along the border. But each country is paranoid the other will make the first move. SAF's aggressive doctrine of Forward Defense does little to placate the Malaysians. MAF decides to do a little "Forward Defense" themselves.
One morning, SAF radar screen and other intel suddenly reports 30 RMAF warplanes airborne and heading for SG.
RSAF and AA scrambles to face the aircraft threat.
But at the same time, radar shows 320 rockets heading for Changi, Tengah and Seletar Airbases. All are fired from 20 scattered launchers about 70km away.
And, yes, their artillery and mortars also zero-in onto our airbases.
Let's say within 2 minutes of the MLRS travel time, 20 of our warplanes manage to take off before the airbases got hit. Another 10 are already on air patrol. The 30 RSAF planes slaughtered the RMAF air assault. Some go on to attack targets in MY.
Immediately after taking off, the 3 airbases are showered with over 300 rockets cratering the runways and destroying other facilities and unsheltered aircrafts. Some of the warheads have delayed fuses making runway repair work hazardous.
So the problem now is the airbases are out of action and those that planes are airborne have nowhere to land. Some use the converted expressways while others head for the sanctuary Thailand.
I have no idea what will happen next but this is the first 20 minutes of H-Hour. -
That's the nightmare scenario, tvdog. That's why we must strike first in a war, and our neighbours know this. This destabilizes the whole region. However, I think you overestimate the damage that rocket artillery can do to airbases, especially unguided rocket artillery. I also think you underestimate how hard it is to launch a strike on Singapore without us being aware of it in advance.
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I don't get it... What makes you think that artillery is so effective. MRLS takes a long time to reload and they are dead ducks when reloading. In any case, MRLS is difficult to hide. Need a big clearing to fire. In any case, how many large clearing for mrls to fire is available within 40 clicks of singapore. Not many. Most likely rice field or city squares.
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I hear thatOriginally posted by Moonstriker:Primus is old~
LWH rolling out soon ~
Well.... civilians naturally get caught in crossfire during war. Considered as collateral damage. Thats why we have air raid shelters~
Oh ya.. we got so many HDB buildings n high rise blocks for good reasons..
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Aiy. Why dont we construct a steel umbrella over Singapore? Or start digging an underground city already?
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True, I probably overestimated the MLRS effectiveness. But better to err on the safe side.Originally posted by dkhoo:That's the nightmare scenario, tvdog. That's why we must strike first in a war, and our neighbours know this. This destabilizes the whole region. However, I think you overestimate the damage that rocket artillery can do to airbases, especially unguided rocket artillery. I also think you underestimate how hard it is to launch a strike on Singapore without us being aware of it in advance.
But I don't think that my guess is that far off the mark: The MAF MLRS primary-target is our airfield.
Does anyone know if MAF have 2, 20 or 200 MLRS launchers?
It is true that we may know in advance if MAF will attack. But if we cannot locate their MLRS launchers before they fire, then the result is still the same. The only time we know that the MLRS rockets are on the way is when they are already airborne. -
I don't get it, why do you keep talking about reloading? They just need to fire off their entire load of rockets within a few seconds and then escape into the jungle. Or one could fire from the centre of town, and then escape into a warehouse or even a fire brigade building to hide.Originally posted by zquek:I don't get it... What makes you think that artillery is so effective. MRLS takes a long time to reload and they are dead ducks when reloading. In any case, MRLS is difficult to hide. Need a big clearing to fire. In any case, how many large clearing for mrls to fire is available within 40 clicks of singapore. Not many. Most likely rice field or city squares.
What makes you think MLRS need a big clearing to fire? These are all very dated concepts.
Each individual launcher can be in a different place in different states of peninsula Malaysia, but given the coordinates to fire on the same target at a given time even while maintaining strict radio silence.
So the only time we know we are being fired upon is when these things are airborne. And depending on how many launchers they have, these could be hundreds of rockets at one go. -
here's a veri good time to start investing in lasers..Originally posted by tvdog:I don't get it, why do you keep talking about reloading? They just need to fire off their entire load of rockets within a few seconds and then escape into the jungle. Or one could fire from the centre of town, and then escape into a warehouse or even a fire brigade building to hide.
What makes you think MLRS need a big clearing to fire? These are all very dated concepts.
Each individual launcher can be in a different place in different states of peninsula Malaysia, but given the coordinates to fire on the same target at a given time even while maintaining strict radio silence.
So the only time we know we are being fired upon is when these things are airborne. And depending on how many launchers they have, these could be hundreds of rockets at one go. -
they have 18 MLRS launchers.Originally posted by tvdog:True, I probably overestimated the MLRS effectiveness. But better to err on the safe side.
But I don't think that my guess is that far off the mark: The MAF MLRS primary-target is our airfield.
Does anyone know if MAF have 2, 20 or 200 MLRS launchers?
It is true that we may know in advance if MAF will attack. But if we cannot locate their MLRS launchers before they fire, then the result is still the same. The only time we know that the MLRS rockets are on the way is when they are already airborne.
and if you are so damn worried.. ask MINDEF to use the land based ASTER 15/30 linked to herakles radar to defend the airbase lah...
each system can simultaneously engage up to 24 incoming targets.. put afew such system around our airbase... backed up by rows of I-HAWK, RAPIER with blindfire as well as AAA linked to superflademous(spelling error) radar... and you can knock most if not all of those incoming rockets aimed at our runways.
not enough.. you can always ask the navy with 6 stealth frigate to provide secondly backup to the Air defence umbrella with their asters and herakles.
still not enough? keep our planes underground first, bring out the UCAV and UAVs(loaded with TNT), attack helos... and rely on LR and MR SAMs.
runway damaged? there are plenty of straight roads in singapore... all well protected from ARTY and rockets by all the tall tall HDB flats.
a fighter only needs 300 to 500 meters of straight road... they dont even need runways... only the KC-135 needs to use the AFB runways to takeoff.
in fact.. during air force open house.. its well demonstrated that all our fighters can take off from relatively short runways(depends on weapon loads), they dont need the entire 2.5 to 3.5km runways.
the longest runway a fighter will ever need is 700meters when they are armed to the teeth... and loaded to the max. -
Perhaps MINDEF is trying to save money in the NGF programme and invest in the F-35C variant.
Anyway, this is where HUMINT comes in, and also our Ofeq satellites.They know we are watching, and vice-versa.Something like MAD but on a kindergarten scale. -
might as well the RSAF redesign their runways with a 20 meter tall reinforced concrete walls running parallel on both side of the runways coupled with a reinforced hardened concrete inverted V shaped ceiling?
or build underground runways beneath the current above ground runways like the way we build all those underground roads...
fighters can take off from those underground runways or roads, safe from arty, mortar and rocket shelling.
its far more cost effective then simply buying thoudsands of missiles to engaged thousands of brainless projectiles...
open air runways belongs with the dinosaurs in present day military technology... with spy satellites running all over our heads 24/7...
its a miracle that while SAF thinks 3G and talk RMA, but still rely on dinosaurs... runways which could be our achilles heel.
didnt SM Lee visited the taiwan airbase that was sited under a mountain? shouldnt we have learned something from them?
if we can build UAB... why not just think a step further and build some underground runways? -
yupyup/....Originally posted by tripwire:might as well the RSAF redesign their runways with a 20 meter tall reinforced concrete walls running parallel on both side of the runways coupled with a reinforced hardened concrete inverted V shaped ceiling?
or build underground runways beneath the current above ground runways like the way we build all those underground roads...
fighters can take off from those underground runways or roads, safe from arty, mortar and rocket shelling.
its far more cost effective then simply buying thoudsands of missiles to engaged thousands of brainless projectiles...
i wonder y they didn't build those underground runway, it will save land n protect our planes....SO COOL like batman .. oPPS
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Tell them we also have Reserve Runways as Reported in Asean Defense Journal Jan 2004.Pl open your eyes. All these have been printed black and white and displayed in all liabary.
....stresses off-base development to public highways(incl LCK RD,Tuas Rd and ECP) which can be converted into emergency runways.
page 4.
2.Not to mention the Sudong one.If there is head to roll,not mine.It would be the one who approve the ADJ to be released here.All are still there after 19 months.So,I do not think it is a secret .Few may know Tuas's one.
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fr http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=148647&page=0
4.The potential risk of disclosing SAF movement online ,fast and accurate,is 10 times dangerous than wat I do here.Have i told u anything new?NO!
All are old news unless u dunt read. -
Yeah! Why not an entire underground airbase?
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1.Seven GMLRS Unitary rockets were rippled fired from a 65 kilometer distance and reached the target with extreme accuracy.
2.ST can make Long Shot under Unmanned System--Others.I assume all bomb in RSAF is now fitted with wings!!It will be the dummiest if we dunt fix LONG SHOT on the bombs but we can make and sell them.
what is long shot
http://armedservices.house.gov/openingstatementsandpressreleases/107thcongress/01-03-22levy.html
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
isn't that like crusie missile of tomahawks/???? high payload flying bomb?[/b] -
Long Shot is coupled with a conventional bomb to increase its range. It is not the same as cruise missiles like Tomahawk as these improved bombs do not have their own power source, lack the sofisticated guidance system and range of the Tomahawks.
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Honestly, I think we'd have UAV coverage even before hostilities commence. After that, its just picking out the smoke plumes.
Is it not possible for CIWS to gun down rockets?
Rockets are essentially Unguided projectiles. The longer the range, the more inaccurate it is. It really isnt' meant for precision strikes against mainland singapore if u think about it. More like, clearing out an area where troops are likely to pass through or converge.
If they really do decide to bombard our housing and residential areas, then they'd be wasting their aces on something somewhat inconsequential and likely to piss us off. They know we'd be hunting for em launchers and likely to kill them before they can make off their 2nd volley.
Unless they use guided rockets (if they exist) to target our runways, i'm guessing they'd have to be about 40km in order to increase the accuracy and the saturation of bomblets on our runways. That would put them in range for counter-battery fire. And a quick run from our Apaches.
In order to minimise the amount of damage we sustain, our best bet is to sever their communications totally. Adding to that, waging all out electronic warfare to confuse the chain of command totally. How to do that... is up to imagination I suppose. -
I think the range is abt 100~110km, more than enough against all their VSHORADs and possible PRC's KS-1!!!Originally posted by tankee1981:Long Shot is coupled with a conventional bomb to increase its range. It is not the same as cruise missiles like Tomahawk as these improved bombs do not have their own power source, lack the sofisticated guidance system and range of the Tomahawks. 