Re: Bayonets ?
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Hmmmz....can the Ultimax 100 be fitted with a bayonet too? Dunnoe bout u guys,but i feel that havin an additional weapon in combat is better then bring one less. If remove the bayonet,perhaps should equip with a sidearm with 1 mag in weapon and 2 additional mags.
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Which is fine until you bring space and gravity into the equation.
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how about fixing the infantry parang onto the SAR21.
then can slash and thrust and give more intimidation to enemy. -
Actually a pistol with an extra mag or two might be nice. Thigh holster?
This would especially be gd for the SAW gunners when they do FIBUA. -
carry samurai sword better
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to equip with pistols would be expensive ... even if it's only to all infantry based formations alone (infantry, guards, commandos ... ) a bayonet would be a cheap and universal solution ...
what i think a bayonet would be good for:
psychological weapon - an edged weapon tickles your brain stem like no other ... it's a primeval thing, might notch up the confidence a bit .... further more, a bayonet would not be solely for just close-in, hand to hand combat alone ... think crowd control ... military operations other than war, again, a lesson from the war in Iraq: ... suppose we take over a town or city somewhere, how do we deal with order and control issues ? ... protesters, agitators ? ... a fixed bayonet would send a very clear signal not to mess around ... much more effective and less confrontational to the civilians to the other side (as opposed to having to shoot a few rounds in the air ...) ... the psychological effect works both ways too ....
close combat weapon - like i said earlier, the terrain of our potential battlefield makes very close in contact often unavoidable, and a bayonet would make a good "immediate action" weapon, (think night fighting ... ever got contacted at night ? ... how close was it ? ... ) and again, considering the fact that our average infantryman would be a citizen soldier, bayonet fighting would be a much more easier skill to learn and to execute ... (as opposed to unarmed combat ... )
I dunno ... i just can't shake off the nagging unease that the SAF has done away with bayonet fighting all together .... -
I think incidents like Bloody Sunday have pretty much demonstrated that lethal firearms and crowd control don't mix. If you're looking to intimidate the crowds, tear-gas guns, water cannons and other nonlethal weapons with muzzles you can stick your arm into will do the job admirably, thank you very much. The bayonet's redundant under those circumstances.
If you're contacted at night, you've got ammo in your weapon - use it.
The design and intent of the bayonet dates back to the days of manually-loaded weapons and charging trenches. With current fighting techniques, it's redundant. If you do need to silence the enemy, you can use a knife that's not necessarily a bayonet. -
You rangers have the stilleto knife to show off. How about making it available to the guards formation as well?Originally posted by Gedanken:The design and intent of the bayonet dates back to the days of manually-loaded weapons and charging trenches. With current fighting techniques, it's redundant. If you do need to silence the enemy, you can use a knife that's not necessarily a bayonet. -
Reality check, iveco. Our issued stilettos are never taken out on missions. The way I heard it, in the early years, some nutjob took his out and used it on some unsuspecting victim. During my time, they were issued to us for the red beret presentation, then returned to the armskote where they never saw the light of day again.
During my service, my bayonet sat in the cupboard gathering dust - with my OC's blessing, I used my personal Gerber Mark II. -
All i know is.. by the time i am using bayonets or my knife instead of my rifles and side arms.. situation has gone to hell.. and to slash through a mob.. i will need the sharpest and most effective way to cut my way through! lol.. sometimes..shit happens !
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I tend to feel that SAF should not totally do away from bayonet fighting.
I thot it is a good training to ingrain "aggressiveness" and a sense of 'attack' on your combat troops. -
Don't know if there's any lack of aggressiveness these days, but I certainly spent a fair few BTECs giggling myself stupid while the lads were running about, chasing Guardsmen and screaming, "NBCB! Ler mai zhao! Ler mai zhao!".Originally posted by spencer99:I tend to feel that SAF should not totally do away from bayonet fighting.
I thot it is a good training to ingrain "aggressiveness" and a sense of 'attack' on your combat troops.
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Nowadays, it seems like they are really trying to change the SAF into a tech force rather than a gung-ho ChiONg Ah Gang.
I mean, nothing wrong with Gunghoness, but it seems like they want ppl who can look thru the scope of the weapon, fire, kill, next target, fire, next target. Like in a computer game.
I think they are right in one sense.
Like it or not, most of us aren't as fit as our fathers were, when they were in NS. ANd we weren't spat at, by Israeli commanders. To continue with the image that Singapore's Army is about being "super-fit, fierce, tough and gungho" is gonna turn of the next generation of Singaporean youths, who are in generally, NOT very Garang.
So, its better to bank the image on technology. Make the SAF look very high-tech, in order to influence youths to think better of the SAF. If the youths of today dun sign on, who's gonna? -
Hmmm... then you must have heard about some bayonet incident, since we both served at around the same time.Originally posted by Gedanken:Don't know if there's any lack of aggressiveness these days, but I certainly spent a fair few BTECs giggling myself stupid while the lads were running about, chasing Guardsmen and screaming, "NBCB! Ler mai zhao! Ler mai zhao!". -
I suppose part of my reservation stems from the fact that the SAF today, or so it seems to me, thinks that technology is the be all and end all for everything ... perhaps it's because i started my military service not in tekong BMTC (no disrespect intended) but in a place where the emphasis was very different, i'm imbued with the thinking that in the end, all battles boils down to a dirty infantry based war, where you fight eye-ball to eye-ball with the enemy ... i suppose technology is well and good in it's own way ... but untill the day when we develop robots to do the fighting for us ... (no need for NS then ? ... ) .... it'll still be the dirty and smelly grunts plodding along in a jungle somewhere with a rifle and a few grenades that'll decide the outcome ... the talk may be about net-work centric warfare and RMA and all that ... but let's not forget that that the fundamentals of warfare hasn't changed for millennias ..... think of the 3 robbers at tekong not so long ago .... it still took boots on the ground to find someone who doesn't want to be found isn't it ? so perhaps it's not just about doing away with bayonet fighting per se ..... but my unease at creating future generations of soldiers who might view warfare as a "pressing buttons" sort of affair. Yes, times have changed, the youth of today aren't the youth of our father's times, I'm aware of that too ... i didn't serve NS during a time when policemen still wore shorts ... but if the crap hits the fan ... you suppose our enemy's would take that into account ? ...
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Yep, it sounds like we've definitely stomped on the same ground, although I believe you're senior - I enlisted in December 1990.Originally posted by bcoy:Hmmm... then you must have heard about some bayonet incident, since we both served at around the same time.
I've come across a couple of bayonet incidents - which one are you talking about? -
I do agree that some fighting skills are needed. I just don't put bayonet fighting down as one of them.Originally posted by Fatum:I suppose part of my reservation stems from the fact that the SAF today, or so it seems to me, thinks that technology is the be all and end all for everything ... perhaps it's because i started my military service not in tekong BMTC (no disrespect intended) but in a place where the emphasis was very different, i'm imbued with the thinking that in the end, all battles boils down to a dirty infantry based war, where you fight eye-ball to eye-ball with the enemy ... i suppose technology is well and good in it's own way ... but untill the day when we develop robots to do the fighting for us ... (no need for NS then ? ... ) .... it'll still be the dirty and smelly grunts plodding along in a jungle somewhere with a rifle and a few grenades that'll decide the outcome ... the talk may be about net-work centric warfare and RMA and all that ... but let's not forget that that the fundamentals of warfare hasn't changed for millennias ..... think of the 3 robbers at tekong not so long ago .... it still took boots on the ground to find someone who doesn't want to be found isn't it ? so perhaps it's not just about doing away with bayonet fighting per se ..... but my unease at creating future generations of soldiers who might view warfare as a "pressing buttons" sort of affair. Yes, times have changed, the youth of today aren't the youth of our father's times, I'm aware of that too ... i didn't serve NS during a time when policemen still wore shorts ... but if the crap hits the fan ... you suppose our enemy's would take that into account ? ... -
Honestly - I've heard of these stories but never actually seen it. And its always from somebody, who in-turn heard about it from somebody else in another company.Originally posted by Gedanken:Yep, it sounds like we've definitely stomped on the same ground, although I believe you're senior - I enlisted in December 1990.
I've come across a couple of bayonet incidents - which one are you talking about? -
The boots on the ground had to go searching for them cos they SA couldnt Saturate Tekong with ICMs.
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May 17, 2004
British soldiers, outnumbered 5 to 1, kill 35 bad guys in bayonet charge
Bayonet Brits kill 35 rebels
OUTNUMBERED British soldiers killed 35 Iraqi attackers in the ArmyÂ’s first bayonet charge since the Falklands War 22 years ago.
The fearless Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders stormed rebel positions after being ambushed and pinned down.
Despite being outnumbered five to one, they suffered only three minor wounds in the hand-to-hand fighting near the city of Amara.
The battle erupted after Land Rovers carrying 20 Argylls came under attack on a highway.
After radioing for back-up, they fixed bayonets and charged at 100 rebels using tactics learned in drills.
When the fighting ended bodies lay all over the highway — and more were floating in a nearby river. Nine rebels were captured.
An Army spokesman said: “This was an intense engagement.”
The last bayonet charge was by the Scots Guards and the Paras against Argentinian positions. -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A847532
Modern Times
The British have never given up the bayonet. It has remained at 8 inches long but with a thin, fullered, bowie-type knife blade. Even the Submachine Gun L2A3 (Sterling) was issued with a bayonet in case the gun jammed or ran out of ammunition. The bayonet now passes as a combat knife, a sort of saw or a battlefield tool capable of cutting thin wire. It is still fitted to the business end of a rifle, knife-like, the quintessential close-quarter combat weapon.
The last documented use of the bayonet in combat by the British Army would probably be during the Falklands campaign by 3rd Battalion, The Parachute Regiment on the night of June 11-12 and 2nd Battalion, Scots Guards on the night of June 13-14 1982, when night allowed them to close with the enemy without being seen, and engaged, at a distance.
The 3rd Battalion took Mt Longdon and its surroundings after hand-to-hand and bayonet fighting with the 7th Infantry Regiment. The British casualties were 23 killed, one of which, Sergeant Ian John McKay of the 3rd Battalion, was later awarded a posthumous Victoria Cross1. The Argentinians suffered over 50 dead, with many more injured.
The 2nd Scots Guards pushed the 5th Marine Infantry Battalion off the summit and flanks of Mt Tumbledown with rifle and bayonet shortly before the surrender of Argentine forces. It cost seven Guardsmen and one Royal Engineer killed, while 40 Argentinean Marines lost their lives opposing them.
After the Falklands, the infantry began to train in the use of the bayonet again; it had returned from near oblivion.
Anachronism?
Modern weapons have an awesome weight of firepower available, so why bother with cold steel? The bayonet, used by a determined soldier, is capable of physical harm, but it is primarily a psychological weapon. Its value is not in its form or the harm it can do.
When the soldier fixes his bayonet and points it at the enemy, he is declaring his determination to close and kill savagely at close quarter. For most soldiers trained to kill with bullets and shells at distance, it is time to think seriously about an easy way out. -
Originally posted by tvdog:
Thanks ..... hope some scholar-general sitting in an aircon office somewhere in mindef has taken time off his computer screen and read it .... and will do something about it before he retires and transfer to some statutary board ...... technology may decide the outcome of wars today .... but the day when microchips alone will win the battle is still far far away ......
May 17, 2004
British soldiers, outnumbered 5 to 1, kill 35 bad guys in bayonet charge
[b]Bayonet Brits kill 35 rebels
OUTNUMBERED British soldiers killed 35 Iraqi attackers in the ArmyÂ’s first bayonet charge since the Falklands War 22 years ago.
The fearless Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders stormed rebel positions after being ambushed and pinned down.
Despite being outnumbered five to one, they suffered only three minor wounds in the hand-to-hand fighting near the city of Amara.
The battle erupted after Land Rovers carrying 20 Argylls came under attack on a highway.
After radioing for back-up, they fixed bayonets and charged at 100 rebels using tactics learned in drills.
When the fighting ended bodies lay all over the highway — and more were floating in a nearby river. Nine rebels were captured.
An Army spokesman said: “This was an intense engagement.”
The last bayonet charge was by the Scots Guards and the Paras against Argentinian positions.[/b] -
I think a bayonet charge is a silly thing. 9 out of 10 times it will fail miserably.
But then rational, people shouldn't take part in wars.
A bayonet is a last resort tool for taking someone with you if your prospect of making it aren't looking particularly rosy. -
Oh, bravo - that article from that pinnacle of journalisitc responsibility, The Sun.
No, Fatum, somehow I don't think MINDEF is on The Sun's mailing list. -
yeah, i know .... i was trying to be scarcastic too ...Originally posted by Gedanken:Oh, bravo - that article from that pinnacle of journalisitc responsibility, The Sun.
No, Fatum, somehow I don't think MINDEF is on The Sun's mailing list.
... but you get my point don't you .... i just hope that we don't degenerate into a "button pressing" army ...