Re: Bayonets ?
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Gents,
It's been a few years since i've ORD'ed (2003) so i didn't have a chance to transition to the SAR 21, of all the problems i've heard about it (heavier, single side ejector port, so no good for lefties etc), none disturbs me as much as the fact that it has no bayonet mounts ? .... is that true ?
I see the bayonet as a very effective psychological weapon, even if it'll never be used as even as a last ditch weapon. the fact that the US army, the most high-tech army in the world, still retains bayonet mounts on their assault rifles, isn't that saying something ?
(and i've read somewhere that bullpup designs (like SAR 21) are actually very effective in bayonet combat too (hard to deflect a thrust from a bullpup rifle once someone get's close)
this is my virgin posting, not sure if someone has posted something similar before ... in anycase, i'd like to hear what people out there has to say ... -
This SEARCH will probably lead you to some of the past discussions.
Enjoy ya stay here.. or any other forums.
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You really enjoy charging up a hill with bayonet fixed? Wait till you have an oppportunity to go to BCTC.
Besides, with the short length of the SAR21, you probably have better reach swinging a knife with your arm than trying to poke the enemy with a SAR21. -
You really enjoy charging up a hill with bayonet fixed? Wait till you have an oppportunity to go to BCTC.
Besides, with the short length of the SAR21, you probably have better reach swinging a knife with your arm than trying to poke the enemy with a SAR21. -
read about british bayonet fighting tactics, they are masters of the bayonet, the way they use the SA80 in bayonet fighting is to parry the enemy's initial thrust and get into his arc of movement, once inside, your charging momentem and the short length of the rifle will mean that he'll sure kenna skewered ...
anyway, like i said, the bayonet would be a more of a psychological weapon (for the SAF at least) now ... an edged weapon will have quite a psychological effect on the enemy as well as us ..... picture this: a squad of pimply-faced, scrawny tekong boys in number 4 charging at you going "ahhhhhhhh " ....... now imagine the same but with bayonets attached to their SAR 21s .... -
This is Nuts
Frankly, in a War, i rather kill from far. Best is don't ever have to to use Bayonnet. If have to fight in Close combat, than i rather sling weapon and take out Pistol. -
Hahaha. Anybody seen an M16-M203 with an attached Bayonet b4?
Heh, im not complaining about the bayonet thing man. No need to do bayonet fighting. -
you've ever fired a pistol during your NS service, huh ? ....
well, of course i'd prefer to be behind cover and taking aimed shots at the enemy 300 metres away ... but you can't choose where you fight everytime ... think fallujah, and compare it to singapore for example ..... FIBUA, where your enemy might be in the next room, rolling grenades at you across the floor ..... i'd prefer to have a "last ditch" weapon with me should the ammo runs out ... and a bayonet fixed to end of a rifle, even a bullpup one, would be more lethal i think, than swinging the same M7 from your hands, especially in the hands of non-professional soldiers like our (non-professional as in a citizen army like ours), even in jungle warfare, because of the density of the shrubbery of our tropical jungles and all, the engagement range would be significantly shorter than say, the middle eastern desert, or the northern european forests (places where i suppose we get most of our doctrine from), like it or not, chances are you'll be close to the enemy, and so i think the bayonet is all the more important to have ... -
Bayonets are indeed important.Foolish to abandon it yeah...
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That's what the parang is for. Otherwise, ET tool.
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I think its still possible lor..the existing SAR-21s can be recalled and fitted with a bayonet lug...make it a pluf bayonet like the British SA-80s...a polymer-type bayonet would also be good...
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Well, yes the bayonet might look a little scary, but how much training did we get in bayonet fighting?
Last I remember of my NS days when we did it with a M16 (which makes it more of a realistic weopon that a SAR21), we did about 2 or 3 lessons in bayonet fighting? And at BCTC, we do basically 3 things, straight thrust, butt stroke to the head, and downward thrust. Who would seriously consider that as enough training to enable us to effectively fight using a bayonet on a rifle?
Think if I run out of ammo, I'll most likely use the SAR21 as a club than try and use it in the traddional bayonet and rifle manner. -
Don't think you can buttstroke someone with a SAR 21, will have to have a bayonet if you want to use it as a last ditch weapon (unless you want to poke somebody's eyeballs out with the barrel ... ) and yeah, bayonet training was more like a PT session during NS ... perhaps it's something the SAF should do a review on ... the brits have great experience with the bayonet, and the ergonomics of the SA80 looks a lot like that of the SAR 21, perhaps we should learn from them ...Originally posted by insouciant:Well, yes the bayonet might look a little scary, but how much training did we get in bayonet fighting?
Last I remember of my NS days when we did it with a M16 (which makes it more of a realistic weopon that a SAR21), we did about 2 or 3 lessons in bayonet fighting? And at BCTC, we do basically 3 things, straight thrust, butt stroke to the head, and downward thrust. Who would seriously consider that as enough training to enable us to effectively fight using a bayonet on a rifle?
Think if I run out of ammo, I'll most likely use the SAR21 as a club than try and use it in the traddional bayonet and rifle manner.
seriously, i think it's a serious deficiency not to have a bayonet lug for the SAR 21, wonder why they did away with it in the first place, considering that even the ultimax 100 was designed with a bayonet lug .... for the newfangled lazer aiming module maybe ...... maybe that can be solved by mounting the lugs on top instead of below ? -
Uh, if the other blighter is rolling grenades at you from the next room, how exactly is a bayonet going to help?
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Thats why, we should standardise and carry a Katana or Tanto as a melee weapon! BANZAI!!!
BAKAYARO!! HENTAI!! MITSUBISHI!! LANCER!! YAMATE!! YAMATO!! MOMO DRINK!! -
Actually, what might be really useful is that the SAF issue a really decent (too much to hope for "good") survival / combat knife. Especially if they are doing away with bayonets.
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it's pointless, the bayonets aren't even sharp!
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Pun intended?Originally posted by Gordonator:it's pointless, the bayonets aren't even sharp! 
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Originally posted by Gedanken:Pun intended?
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that's just to illustrate how close the enemy might be lah ... of course of a grenade lands at your feet there's nothing you can do but shout Grenade ! and jump far far away lah .... (standing broadjump during IPPT ... bling bling ! ...) ... or perhaps some might be tempted to fling themselves onto the grenade to save his buddies .....Originally posted by Gedanken:Uh, if the other blighter is rolling grenades at you from the next room, how exactly is a bayonet going to help? 
but the fact remains ... the potential engagement ranges across the possible terrains that we might fight in are all quite close, think urban warfare, or thick tropical jungles ... where the enemy may be behind the next bush ... now picture this scenario, in a thick jungle somewhere north of us, you and your squad contacted the enemy in very close range, you emptied your mag and was just about to eject it when a chap stumbles out of the bushes right infront of you .... he has an AUG (with mag attached)
do you:
1. try to change the mag asap and fire before he recovers, hoping he's not fast enough
2. immediately charge forward and stick your bayonet mounted on your SAR into him ... and give it a twist .....
3. twist around, unbutton your bayonet scabboard, pull it out ... and go hand to hand with him ?
4. flash your GF's face in your mind because you're going to die ? ...
fact remains ... we need the bayonet ... -
Cute. Wherever did you learn to do jungle fighting or CQB with a bayonet attached?
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that's why we need to revise the doctrine ! ... okay .... FIBUA with bayonets would be impractical with an M16 .... but we got a bullpup rifle now .... as for jungle fighting, the only reason commanders don't want you to fix bayonet is during exercise some cockster will skewer someone or himself or something like that .....Originally posted by Gedanken:Cute. Wherever did you learn to do jungle fighting or CQB with a bayonet attached? -
Nuh-uh. In both CQB and jungle fighting, a shorter weapon is always preferable because you don't want it getting caught on anything. Hell, as it is, if it wasn't for the muzzle flash, I would have happily switched my carbine's flash suppressor for the standard M16 bit.
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I think if the enemy come around the tree with a full loaded and cocked rifle, it doesn't matter if you have a bayonet attached. Cuz he's going to be able to point and shoot a lot fast then you can charge and direct your bayonet into his vitals so that he can't pull the trigger.
Might be a better idea to dive as far away as you can and pray your buddy will cover you. -
Well, to have to go into bayonet fighting; u'd either be charging down a trench, and detached from ur section. Which shouldn't happen.
Either that, u're the last man standing. Rifle over head sounds like a better option unless u are someone likely to be interrogated severely.