Singapore to decide Rafale or Eagle by September!
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Not to mention cost due to lower economies of scale for everything, avionics, aircraft, engineering, maintainence, etc...Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:Logistics nightmare...
Think it's probably going to be the F15T. Why? Cause we're probably going to integrate technology from our favourite aerospace technology partners (and I don't mean the Americans), and they've been doing it for a while on the F15.
Would have been nice if we could have gotten an aircraft that could use short airstrips though. -
Just read an article in Air Force Magazine that says that Rafale is not close to being integrated with any other weopons besides the French Air Force's.
Might be a big issue for the selection process. -
I guess integration for the rafale is no problem, although its french system. The israelis have done this nicely for many years in the past. Chances are we will draw on their experiences to do so.
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I actually preferred EuroFighter.
EuroFighter is near to the standards of F-22 and F-35
Besides , Eurofighter has the technology of 4 countries combined , compared to France which only has the key technology of 1 country.
But , some countries are known to withhold their key technologies , even when it comes to EuroFighter. When doing in a joint group.
SG is known for using an aircraft and squeezing the best from it , just like the F-5 .
Imagine Singapore using 1918 fighter airframe which has already been there for 60 years. Im just trying to prove my point. That means propeller planes like those German red baron til 1978!!
Going by the WWII trend , 1942 fighter plane , from the beginning of it's use til 2002 . same thing.
F-15 airframe has been there since 1972 . Already 33 years have passed.
If SG use it , it's equal to almost 63 years and counting!
That means , going by the same theory , Singapore would be using a museum aircraft to guard the skies. If Singapore was adopting the theory which i proposed , that means , today you would be seeing Mustang planes armed with AIM-9X sidewinder and AIM-120 AMRAAM.
gahh -
F-35 is the plane which corrected all the design flaws in the F-15.
F-15 corrected the design flaws of the F-4.
I'll choose Rafale , and mod it with israeli electronics.
integrate with AIM-120 AMRAAM and get AESA technology , partner with the french and develop our own missile systems together.
Integrate the french-made Rafale with our french made-ships together..
rafale naval patrol , data link with our FD class frigates , skim the seas and eliminate the enemy! -
Singapore will not get F-15T in my opinion.
F-35 basically is based on the same roles of the F-15 , but much more advanced.
So why would it get F-15T when there's a better option nearby? -
It takes time to integrate electronics, avionics and other technologies. Singapore wants it's fighters by 2008. Hence one of the reasons why the Eurofighter was eliminated from the competition (I like th Eurofighter too), cuz RSAF didn't think it would be available in time with what RSAF wanted.
The Rafale would be a great choice with all the advance bells and whistles. But, will it be able to do it in time.
There was a mention that equating buying the F15T to having a Mustang (great WWII aircraft btw altho I prefer the Corsair better) with AMRAAMs.
But the thing you are forgetting is that aircraft development has slowed. Way back then new types of aircraft were introduced every year. The Brits had the Hurricane and the Spitfire.
As for having an aircraft for many years, didn't we only just retire the Skyhawks? Believe they were in service in 1950s. That's about 50 years too.
I'm not a strong proponent of the Rafale or the Eagle, but I think it's going to come down to who can get us the aircraft by 2008 with all the technologies and weopons integrated, and ability to do the job, and do it well. -
Guys, if u really think about it, the F-15T is really Top of the line for its class. These days, it pays to have state of the art avionics, ECM, ECCM systems in ur pocket.
Air combat is no longer about getting into dogfight range, and shoving a Sidewinder up ur bandit's tailpipe. Its about launching off ur BVR missiles at optimum (not maximum) range, turn tails to shrug off incoming missiles, and regroup for a second shot. Aka Chainsaw.
So, it pays to have the best Jammers.
What does the SU-30 series have? The best of Russian jammers is the Sorbitsya series, and our friends aint got it.
On the other hand, Israel is pretty proficient in modifying french stuff. Look at their Mirage 2ks up close and u'll see.
But somehow, I foresee the F-15Ts on parade in 2009. -
One important factor to consider is whether it suit our requirement.
1) M1A1 MBT from USA is battle prove.
2) Agis destroyer is battle prove.
But Singapore does not purchase these weapons. -
The Israelis DO NOT have Mirage 2000!Originally posted by Shotgun:Guys, if u really think about it, the F-15T is really Top of the line for its class. These days, it pays to have state of the art avionics, ECM, ECCM systems in ur pocket.
Air combat is no longer about getting into dogfight range, and shoving a Sidewinder up ur bandit's tailpipe. Its about launching off ur BVR missiles at optimum (not maximum) range, turn tails to shrug off incoming missiles, and regroup for a second shot. Aka Chainsaw.
So, it pays to have the best Jammers.
What does the SU-30 series have? The best of Russian jammers is the Sorbitsya series, and our friends aint got it.
On the other hand, Israel is pretty proficient in modifying french stuff. Look at their Mirage 2ks up close and u'll see.
But somehow, I foresee the F-15Ts on parade in 2009. -
Yup what the Israelis have are Mirage III unlicensed copies known locally as Kfirs. These have been extensively upgraded in service. However with the introduction into service of advanced strike aircraft such as the F-15I and F-16I, the Kfir C7/CT7s are being withdrawn from service. Some of the still new airframes are on sale to Latin American countries while the majority will be scrapped.Originally posted by spencer99:The Israelis DO NOT have Mirage 2000! -
That's because Singapore doesn't quite need the Aegis destroyers (would be nice to have mind you) and the jury is still out on what type of tanks to aquire.Originally posted by wkl:One important factor to consider is whether it suit our requirement.
1) M1A1 MBT from USA is battle prove.
2) Agis destroyer is battle prove.
But Singapore does not purchase these weapons.
And battle proven doesn't mean it meets our requirements. But if the item meets our requirements and is battle proven, all the better no?
Ya, wouldn't be surprised too if we see a flight of F15Ts that is crammed with souped up electronics screaming across the skies of Padang or the new National Stadium in 2009. -
If i remember correctly , it costs about $1 billion USD to build 6 delta frigates.Originally posted by insouciant:That's because Singapore doesn't quite need the Aegis destroyers (would be nice to have mind you) and the jury is still out on what type of tanks to aquire.
And battle proven doesn't mean it meets our requirements. But if the item meets our requirements and is battle proven, all the better no?
Ya, wouldn't be surprised too if we see a flight of F15Ts that is crammed with souped up electronics screaming across the skies of Padang or the new National Stadium in 2009.
Aegis costs 1 billion USD a piece.
1 billion USD = 500 million plates of chicken rice
1 billion USD = 2,000 condo units
1 billion USD = 50 fighter jets
1 billion USD = 2 esplanade and 1 biopolis with enough to build 2 NLB buildings
1 billion = 35 city harvest churchs
etc.. -
Oops, my bad. Mirage iii and Kfir it is.
Who was it that operated those Mirage 2000N besides france?
Anyways, I think City Harvest Church building cost 40 or 50 million Only. So cant be only 35 of those buildings with 1 billion lar. -
TaiwanOriginally posted by Shotgun:Oops, my bad. Mirage iii and Kfir it is.
Who was it that operated those Mirage 2000N besides france?
Anyways, I think City Harvest Church building cost 40 or 50 million Only. So cant be only 35 of those buildings with 1 billion lar.
CHC costs $48 million SGD.
$1 billion USD , read again
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
Well, if you are taking about 2000Ns, the answer is None. You are talking about the dedicated nuclear-strike version of the 2000s which I doubt the French will export!
...Who was it that operated those Mirage [b]2000N besides france...[/b]
The ones which I believe are the Mirage 2000-5 (which the ROCAF possess) or the current model 2000-9.[/quote] -
Yup the Taiwanese own 60 Mirage 2000-5 warplanes while Greece and the UAE have made orders for the Mirage 2000-9... I believe these have already been delivered. Other less capable versions such as the Mirage 2000P are operated by India and Peru...Originally posted by Black Aces: -
Lol, well, it seems like they are gonna leave their 48Million SGD building already.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:Taiwan
CHC costs $48 million SGD.
$1 billion USD , read again -
I've decided, I'm placing my bets with the F15T Strike Eagle.
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COme on la ppl!!! dun support such an old piece of junk! okay its not really junk but its damn friggin old la. Its not even next generation!!! omg it'll be a flying coffin next time when the Raptors start flying. 1960's aircraft... omg i think im going to cry...
Rafale better newer smaller.. which takes up less runway. but im worried about the electronics. F-15 will be much easier to integrate the stuffs but Rafale is also possible to cram in stuffs on our own. Besides if we have something other countries do not have, we can have our very own classified ace in the hole which only we know. For example a special programme or electronic that can jam up an entire city or something which works only on Rafale.. not Eagle. then we have the upper hand when a need for such a thing arises.
F-15T
Okay 2008 minus 1970 thats a good 38 years, usually SG uses the aircraft for 40-50 years
so when it finally retires the eagle i mean, the airframe would have been 78 years old. HOLY FCUK! then maybe singapore consider the raptor to replace it -.-!!!
This whole thing is down to politics la... if US cuts singapore some major trade/defense agreement heavily weighted in our favour i think SG will be swayed. But the idea of the french designed stealth frigate working with the rafale brings smile to my face.
F-15T 30 years down the road. NO. Omg... *cringe* -
I don't think anyone here particularlly supports the F15T. I personally like the Eurofighter. But what we support or otherwise, doesn't make a difference. The evidence now points to a but of F15Ts.
Obviously the air force thinks it meets their needs. Or can be modified to the point where it can meet its needs for the next few or rather 20 years.
And also it meets their need to have a fully developed aircraft by the time they want it.
Aiyah, as an earlier statement said lah, fire AMRAAMs from 10s of kilometers away, turn on jammers and jink for all you are worth.
And to deliver bombs on target, you don't need the latest aircarft to do it. As long as it carries a heavy load, drops it with as good accuracy as the next, is able to cram the latest electronics and flies decently (and the F15 still does).
The JSF is probably at least around another 10years to delivery to Singapore (if we are that lucky), by then we can use them for air-to-air, and hav ethe F15 focus on air to ground.
And just to point out something, the recently retired skyhawks were designed in the late 50s. And we just retired them. They gave pretty darn good service and the Isrealis loved them too, so much so they only retired them recently as well. No one can argue with them that they don't know aircraft ya? -
Our friendly Allied Nation X has really done a wonderful job in copying Mirage 2000, just look at the China J10 is the one of the showcase of their techological know-how.
But F15T may not be the best plane to fly IMHO. Why?
1) The fuel consumption is too high
2) Need tons of service parts and logistic to support the flying time. This is not feasible in our Singapore scenrio.
3) Need long run way to take off
4) US maybe not investing any more $$ and tech into this plane, as they are looking already at UCAV. Thus, they are cutting the JSF and Raptors orders, since these UCAV will be complimenting the new advanced jets into the future battlefield action.
5) Neighbouring Sikkoi are quite dangerous foe for our F16 or even F15T.
6) The time required to config the fighter from attck role into air superiority role will be critical, as singapore needs to response fast to the development of the battlefield.
7) Thrust vectoring engine tech is not available.
Combat mission source code in not available from US most of the time.
9) A lot of legal terms to agree upon before the use of the US supplied fighter.
10) Source of spare parts are limited and always controlled.
11) ECCM & ECM tech from US is always not available, thus our F16 needs to be fine-tuned by our friendly allied Nation X on Planet earth.
Unless, we get a good wonderful package deal that include tech knowledge transfer and industrial partnership and cross-trading deal. Looking ahead of the technological advancement, the F15T headroom for further developement is more limited compare to Rafale. -
I think a lot of chap miss the key point, the current generation F-15 isn't the 30 years old F-15, plane can evolve just like Mitsubishi Evo car which is now in the tenth generation. It just happen F-15 plane take the old plane shape but stuff change, comparing the 9 tons load of F-15A to current >20 tons F-15E ordanance (almost equivalent to a bomber load).
Taken from my usual spy network...
F15-A/B - Aluminium Frame and analog cockpit
F15-C/D - Half aluminium and probably half composite with semi digital cockpit
F-15E - high tech composite material with full digital glass cockpit
F-15 (21 century variant) - new generation composite with radar absorption materials and paint. Not to mention fuel efficent engine, AESA redar and all glass digital cockpit. Can add vector trust engine if U opt for it.
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okay fair enough... but how much more can you change? its radar signature is almost as much as it is only reduced by the RAM. Fuel still burns alot because it is a very big and heavy plane. AESA radar according to some other forum bros say can be integrated into Rafale( the thales and dassault thing?) no intention to flame horOriginally posted by bigballs11:I think a lot of chap miss the key point, the current generation F-15 isn't the 30 years old F-15, plane can evolve just like Mitsubishi Evo car which is now in the tenth generation. It just happen F-15 plane take the old plane shape but stuff change, comparing the 9 tons load of F-15A to current >20 tons F-15E ordanance (almost equivalent to a bomber load).
Taken from my usual spy network...
F15-A/B - Aluminium Frame and analog cockpit
F15-C/D - Half aluminium and probably half composite with semi digital cockpit
F-15E - high tech composite material with full digital glass cockpit
F-15 (21 century variant) - new generation composite with radar absorption materials and paint. Not to mention fuel efficent engine, AESA redar and all glass digital cockpit. Can add vector trust engine if U opt for it. 
IMO i think there is a limit that what you can change to a plane/airframe. I still believe the Rafale has more room for modding. =) besides not many people know what techies can do to a rafale since it is not common. So in that sense it can be our silver bullet against other foes. -
Still gutted that RSAF gave up on the Typhoon...With F35 looming as a replacement for the F5..can you imagine how our air force would be in 7 years time? Operating a fleet of ultra moderns..Typhoon, F-16 (with Wild Weasel) and F35.. No one would be able to touch us..
Anyway,..would go for the next best .. I think F15 should be the one. Combat proven..0 losses..
Rafale is still a bit too raw.