Revolvers vs. Semi-auto pistols
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I started thinking about those old cowboy western movies.Originally posted by Meia Gisborn: -
GODDAMN IT!!!THE WAY HE SHOOTS!!!OMG!!!!OMFG!!!THE REVOLVER BECAME AN ATUOMATIC WEAPON IN HIS HANDS!!!!
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I'm not sure I'm following you here.Originally posted by storywolf:If you want to be acurate the best is to shoot using doublt -action method, same even for M-16, revolvers and pistols.
The problem pistol and revolver is that you only have 2 point contact, thus less stable and if too much trigger pull will jerk it off target. However , these is not the only reason, there is the zeroing part also, if you revolver or pistol is not zeroed, you can be the best double-action and still miss.
Yes last time with the old revolver there is a problem with shooting. That can be justified by the performance of real live action, reports of policeman engaging with revolvers but missed. But since the change to the new revolver, with the new laser point inbuild , the shooting has improved to a very good level. If you notice the case that involve shooting, the policeman do hit the targets ever time.
When a pistol is operated in double action (DA) mode, pulling the trigger both cocks the hammer/striker and then releases it. A single action (SA) trigger just releases a previously-cocked hammer/striker.
Compared to an SA trigger pull, a DA trigger pull is significantly heavier and longer as the hammer/striker spring is being compressed while the trigger is drawn back. An SA pull is usually very short and light as it only has to move the sear a very short distance to release the already-cocked hammer.
The effort required to draw a DA trigger tends to jerk the pistol, negatively impacting accuracy. Pistols shot in the SA mode tend to be more accurate, due to the lighter and shorter trigger pull.
A pistol with poorly-zeroed sights will not shoot to the point of aim, regardless of whether it is SA or DA.
Since we're on the topic of revolvers, here's an image of two of the revolvers in my collection:
The upper revolver is a Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 Mag. with a 10.5" barrel and an SA trigger; the one below is a Ruger GP100 357 Magnum with a 6" barrel and a DA/SA trigger. Both are superbly accurate guns.
MG -
1 question...is it true that for both DA revolvers and semi-auto handguns,after the 1st trigger pull,the following shots fired are all in SA?
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Not really. It is true that pulling the trigger on the first action will cause the aim to go off. But what they taught in the the NPCC (eons ago) was:Originally posted by Meia Gisborn:The effort required to draw a DA trigger tends to jerk the pistol, negatively impacting accuracy. Pistols shot in the SA mode tend to be more accurate, due to the lighter and shorter trigger pull.
1. Point in general direction
2. Pull/squeeze (not impt at this point) 1st action until hammer is fully cocked (can feel a click and the hammer will stay back even if the trigger is released)
3. Close your eye and aim
4. Hold your breath.
5. Make sure your aim is still good
6. Squeeze off second action
7. Open eyes, start breathing again, start to pull trigger again
I have not shot a revolver in centuries but it seems to me that even with a DA revolver, the important things are done when the firearm is in single action mode.
Surely, there cannot be that great a difference between cocking the hammer using the trigger and using your thumb to cock if time allows the above procedure to be followed.
But under time pressure, yes, IMO a SA weapon is more accurate.
Re: the video. That guy has really really steady upper limbs! Can't see any movement even for recoil
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are those revovlers replicas or the real ones? they look VERY authentic
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Regarding point #2, I'd be curious to know what kind of DA/SA pistol has the ability to do what you've described. I'm not doubting that there might be some pistols that can be cocked in the manner described, but I have personally never come across a DA/SA semi-auto or revolver in which you can cock the hammer or striker (that is, put the pistol into SA mode) by simply pulling and then releasing the trigger.Originally posted by 21Alpha:Not really. It is true that pulling the trigger on the first action will cause the aim to go off. But what they taught in the the NPCC (eons ago) was:
1. Point in general direction
2. Pull/squeeze (not impt at this point) 1st action until hammer is fully cocked (can feel a click and the hammer will stay back even if the trigger is released)
3. Close your eye and aim
4. Hold your breath.
5. Make sure your aim is still good
6. Squeeze off second action
7. Open eyes, start breathing again, start to pull trigger again
I have not shot a revolver in centuries but it seems to me that even with a DA revolver, the important things are done when the firearm is in single action mode.
Surely, there cannot be that great a difference between cocking the hammer using the trigger and using your thumb to cock if time allows the above procedure to be followed.
But under time pressure, yes, IMO a SA weapon is more accurate.
Re: the video. That guy has really really steady upper limbs! Can't see any movement even for recoil
In other words, if you initiated a DA pull from the hammer down/striker unloaded position, pulled the trigger back to the point just prior to hammer/striker release, and then eased off on the trigger, the hammer/striker would return to its fully forward position. The one exception to this would be if the pistol was equipped with a "hammer drop safety notch" which would cause the hammer to stop just before contacting the firing pin (a safety feature to prevent a pistol from discharging if the cocked hammer were to accidentally slip off the sear).
However, if you did in fact use such a pistol in the manner you described during your NPCC stint, then you were effectively shooting the pistol in SA mode. Think about it: the first part of the trigger pulled fully cocked the hammer and allowed you to ease up on the trigger without uncocking the hammer, and when you subsequently pulled the trigger, you were releasing an already-cocked hammer.
MG -
They're real. I've had both of them for a number of years now, although I don't shoot them quite as often as my other firearms.Originally posted by chronicles:are those revovlers replicas or the real ones? they look VERY authentic
MG -
For DA semi-autos, yes. The recoiling slide cocks the hammer/striker and puts the pistol in SA mode for subsequent shots.Originally posted by SpecOps87:1 question...is it true that for both DA revolvers and semi-auto handguns,after the 1st trigger pull,the following shots fired are all in SA?
For DA revolvers, no (with the possible exception of the Mateba, which I believe is a revolver that operates like a semi-auto).
I should mention that some pistols are double action-only (DAO), meaning that there is no provision for pre-cocking the hammer or striker. Consequently, the trigger pulls of DAO pistols are usually very heavy. My daily carry gun, a Czechoslovakian CZ100 chambered in 40S&W, is DAO.
MG -
Yes, that was the point I was trying to make.Originally posted by Meia Gisborn:However, if you did in fact use such a pistol in the manner you described during your NPCC stint, then you were effectively shooting the pistol in SA mode. Think about it: the first part of the trigger pulled fully cocked the hammer and allowed you to ease up on the trigger without uncocking the hammer, and when you subsequently pulled the trigger, you were releasing an already-cocked hammer.
It was a .22 LR S&W. I don't know excatly which model though. -
May I ask why you carry a gun, every day?Originally posted by Meia Gisborn:My daily carry gun, a Czechoslovakian CZ100 chambered in 40S&W, is DAO.
The 2 revolvers you show are beautiful, the long one looks like a cowboy-type weapon. It's like the size of a carbine!
Can you please tell me:
a) What's the effective range of these types of weapons?
b) What's the length of their respective ammo.
In Thailand I made friends with a cop sergeant and I got to fool around with the revolver that he carried. In Thailand the cops have the privilege of buying and carrying their own choice of weapons when they achieve senior rank. It was a .357 magnum revolver with rubber grips just like the one pictured.
And I remember the rounds were quite LONG. They had what I think are hollow point bullets as they had a hole in the middle. The cartridge case was silver-ish and the bullet was blue. It was the first time I handled a pistol and its ammunition and I was quite impressed by the size of the ammo, which seems to promise a very nasty wound. He carried with one empty chamber. -
In Texas, we have conceal carry permit, so! we pack and carry every day! You never know when you will need your little baby .... Kind of an equilizer or shit hit the fence type insurance.
Not saying the crime rate or anything is that bad, its just an added insurance.
In fact, in Texas, when governor Bush ( now President Bush) apporve civilian conceal carry permit, the violent crime went down becasue the bad guys do not know who is arm and who is not to rob... in places like California it is very easy becasue all the good guys cannot have guns or very difficult to get, while all the bad guys could get illegal firearms!
My carry choice, in the winter, GLock 23 in .40 caliber or Glock 33 in 357 SIG. SOmtimes I carry a SIG229 in .357 SIG! but have since change to the GLock becasue it is not as chunky and I like the GLock safe action over the SIG DA/SA setup.
FOr summer whereby conceal carry can be difficult, I have a Kahr Mk9 in 9mm. Smaller than a Walther PPK but in full 9mm caliber... and 2 spare magazine !
DaveC
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May I ask why you carry a gun, every day?
For the same reason that thousands of law-abiding Americans here with valid handgun permits carry them: personal protection and safety. And yes, I have had occasion to draw (but thankfully not discharge) my handgun in public to protect myself in the past; that incident is recounted in this thread (fifth post down).
The CZ100 is small and light enough to be easily concealed and unobtrusive in everyday carry. Here's an image of it:
Can you please tell me:
That's a loaded question! I would say the effective range would be those distances at which you can consistently hit your intended target with reasonable accuracy. Scope-equipped large-caliber (44 Mag and up) revolvers have been used by hunters here to take down some pretty sizable game animals like deer and elk from distances exceeding 100 yards.
a) What's the effective range of these types of weapons?
b) What's the length of their respective ammo.
My two Rugers pictured above have been used primarily to punch nice, round holes in paper at around 25 yards. At this distance, with open sights and shooting my target handloads from offhand, I'm usually able to keep the groups consistently under 3". Our club has an 18" cast iron gong mounted at the 200 yard backstop of the rifle range. With my benchrested Super Blackhawk, I am occasionally able to hit the gong, but one has to aim high to compensate for bullet drop at that distance.
As for the cartridge lengths, SAAMI specs for the 357 Mag. and 44 Mag. are 1.590" and 1.610" respectively. In other words, pistols in those calibers have to be able to chamber cartridges up to those dimensions. There will always be variations in overall cartridge length due to differences in projectile weight and length.
For a visual perspective, here's an image of all the cartridges I currently handload:
The 44 Mag. and 357 Mag. cartridges are fifth and sixth from the left, respectively.
MG -
HI Meia Gisborn
Thats a nice setup, Have always fasincated with the CZ-75! Probably need to get me one pretty soon ! I do own a CA clone which is the Swiss Sphinx .... Have not shot it much since it is so pretty! a bit heavy for daily carry! How does the CZ100 shoot compared to the older cousin??
I do not have a large hand thus a lot of the bigger , chunkier pistol dont fit me very well like the HK USP, Paraordanance, Beretta 92 series.
So far, still the 1911 and Glock fits me okay!
Currently, I am having a lot of liking on the Glock 35 in .40 caliber ! it balance very well, and followup shot is very fast, not as fast as a custom 1911 in 38 super! but very gorgiving pistol!
DaveC -
Meia Gibson do you use ankle holsters or anything?I cannot imagine tucking the gun in your pants..must be so uncomfortable right?
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Nope, no ankle holster. The holster in the image above is an "outside waist band" (OWB) unit by GunMate that I use for winter carry, when there's always an outer garment (usually a sweater) to slip over and conceal the pistol. This holster is worn at the 3 o'clock position on the belt, and the only discomfort arises when I am driving and the seat belt digs into the holster somewhat.Originally posted by chronicles:Meia Gibson do you use ankle holsters or anything?I cannot imagine tucking the gun in your pants..must be so uncomfortable right?
For the rest of the year, I'll either tuck the pistol into the reinforced left inside pocket of my jacket, or carry it in a fanny pack.
MG -
So there are more than 1 kind of .357?
The .357 I handled in Thailand are like the ones in MG's pic.
But the .357 in Dave's pic of his Glock 33 looks tiny.
I can understand why in the US you do need firearms. I've been there several times and twice nearly got robbed.
Once I was walking along Market Street in SF one evening with a Singaporean girl firend. As I passed a street corner, I saw 2 negroes acting suspiciocusly and one of them sneaked away out of sight. As I passed the remaining guy, he called out to us to say that I have dropped some money. I turned around and said "nope, didn't drop nothing". He insists and I said "if I dropped anything you can keep it". A couple of desperate but stupid winos.
The next day i immediately bought and carried a nasty-looking Beretta folding-blade knife that can be flicked open instantly.
Another time I was in a motel and some young guy in a leather jacket and sunglasses knocked on my door. It was a summer night at 2am. I saw through the eye piece in the door that he had his right hand tugged into his jacket like he was hiding something. Curiosity got the better of me and I was spoiling for a fight as this pri.ck woke me up. I opened the door without my shirt on. I think my being skinhead, chinese and tattooed kinda made him change his mind whatever his original intentions were, so he mumbled something and left quickly.
Stupid "Singaporean" thing I did - he could've been armed AND high.
As much as I hate the idea of so many people carrying firearms in the US, I admit if I lived there, I'd definitely be carrying a firearm. -
tvdog,
The Glock 33 is chambered in the 357 Sig while the GP 100 shoots both the 357 Magnum and 38 Special.
Here's a "quick and dirty" image showing the 357 Magnum cartridge next to the 357 Sig:
I have a pistol chambered for the 357 Sig (a Springfield XD 357) but do not reload for it.
It looks like you've had several... interesting... experiences while over here. Living in Singapore, one tends to take things like personal safety for granted. In any event, I'm glad you got out of those predicaments safely!
MG -
Somehow, I felt safer in New York than in LA. In LA all the freaks come out of the woodwork after dark and public transport is either non-existent or even more dangerous. I sound silly when I say this now but I was actually scared riding a bus or walking on the street in LA.
I got robbed in Barcelona, chased and cornered the guy and got back my wallet. I now carry a knife everytime I go abroad for holidays as being a tourist, the words "ROB ME" is written on your forehead. My brand new mountain bike got stolen in Shanghai.
Yep, the world is full of crims not like good old Singapore.
At a close range, say 3m, would the small .357 do as much damage as the big .357?
Even though I love long arms like those we serve with in the military and know nothing about pistols, I would definitely buy a concealable SA pistol as a first priority if one day I emigrate to say, Canada. But I don't even know enough about the confusing array of pistol calibres to start with.
Next I would love to own a shotgun - I know no one argues with a shotgun.
How do you qualify for a license to carry a concealed weapon? Are you in law enforcement? Or are you a CZ Armourer as your signature indicates? -
Yep, the world is full of crims not like good old Singapore.
You could conceivably argue that the criminals in Singapore are the ones holding public office and drawing multi-million-dollar salaries.
At a close range, say 3m, would the small .357 do as much damage as the big .357?
That would depend on the weight and type of the projectile.
Both calibers use projectiles of approximately the same diameter (0.355" and 0.357" for the 357 Sig and 357 Magnum, respectively), and projectile weights can vary widely. Commercial 357 Sig ammo can be found with projectiles ranging from 125 gr. to 147 gr.; 357 Magnum ammo is available from 110 gr. all the way up to 180 gr. Also, a hollowpoint projectile is apt to do more damage than an FMJ one, if it properly expands in the target medium.
Commercial 125 gr. 357 Sig ammo is typically loaded to a muzzle velocity of around 1400 fps, with 158 gr. 357 Magnum ammo at approximately 1500 fps.
(By the way, gr. = grain, and 7000 gr. = 1 pound.)
I am sure testing using ballistic gelatin has been performed to ascertain the effectiveness (as measured by penetration, expansion and projectile mass retention) of both calibers, but I currently do not have that information. However, at 3 meters, a well-placed shot from either caliber is likely to disable a normal human (i.e., one who isn't high on pain-suppressing drugs).Next I would love to own a shotgun - I know no one argues with a shotgun.
Except that it's rather difficult to conceal a shotgun in public.
How do you qualify for a license to carry a concealed weapon? Are you in law enforcement? Or are you a CZ Armourer as your signature indicates?
The procedure for applying for a handgun carry permit varies from state to state, but the requirements are usually quite standardized: you have to attend a state-sanctioned firearms training/safety course and submit an application to the city or county office or LE agency. A criminal background check will be performed, and if it comes back clean, you are a candidate for a handgun permit.
I say candidate because there is a wrinkle in the process. In some states, handgun permits are given on a "may issue" basis, meaning that you have to show a need for carrying a handgun in public, even if you meet all the other requirements. In these states, the issuing authority (usually the county sheriff) is the sole authority in determing whether the need is valid or not. Most law enforcement agencies in this country are vehemently anti-2A and do not want firearms in the hands of private individuals. Consequently, most handgun carry permit applications in these "may issue" states are denied for the flimsiest of reasons.
Other states, including Minnesota, have "shall issue" handgun permit laws, meaning that you cannot be denied a permit if you meet all the prerequisites.
And yes, I am one of the several CZ-certified armorers servicing the Upper Midwest region. I am not in law enforcement, but I do occasionally work on CZ pistols carried by LEOs.
MG -
davechng,
Is there any way you could reduce the size of the images in your post above? It's causing the text to roll off the end of the screen even with the window maximized.
Thanks!
MG -
I just resize it !hope this helps.... Looks like everyone has a little misconception of the 357, the usual 357 Magnum is usually chambered for the revolver or the Desert Eagle. But the 357 SIG basically is a neck down cartridge from a .40 cartridge , neck down to a 9mm bullet. ! thus , it achieve almost a 357 Maganum power.
Thus, a 357 SIG pistol can be any of the .40 caliber auto pistol .. you can see that on a SIG229, GLocks, Springfield armoury XD , HK USP etc... since it has the same breech face as a .40 caliber!
FOr concel carry, usually in winter it is easier, U can wear a side holster and your jacket or vesy should easily concel the pistol, IWB ( in waist band holster can be use to) for Summer usuaully you need small and thin pistol like a PPK, Kahr or a small J frame revolver that I usually drop into my right pocket.. works like a charm.
DaveC! -
Dave, I forgot where you live and its gun laws, but do you also have a conceal/carry permit? And in providing a reason for need, what was your reason for carrrying a concealed weapon? If I may ask...
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hey MG i like your guns very much...but i would like to know more abt when u carry the gunOriginally posted by Meia Gisborn:tvdog,
The Glock 33 is chambered in the 357 Sig while the GP 100 shoots both the 357 Magnum and 38 Special.
Here's a "quick and dirty" image showing the 357 Magnum cartridge next to the 357 Sig:
I have a pistol chambered for the 357 Sig (a Springfield XD 357) but do not reload for it.
It looks like you've had several... interesting... experiences while over here. Living in Singapore, one tends to take things like personal safety for granted. In any event, I'm glad you got out of those predicaments safely!
MG
the permit allow you to carry the gun right? but does that mean you can go around with the gun in one hand? or pointing at a person or firing a round to the air?then gun permit allow you to get ALL kind of gun like RPG, M-79,M4-A1???
anyway the best pistol for me would be a extended clip Glock with the mode set to burst fire.like at the air hanger in T3 when Conner burst fired at the T-X....its burst fire right? -
the permit allow you to carry the gun right? but does that mean you can go around with the gun in one hand? or pointing at a person or firing a round to the air?then gun permit allow you to get ALL kind of gun like RPG, M-79,M4-A1???
You're joking, right? You've obviously been watching far too many Hollywood action flicks.
Some states have "open carry" handgun permit laws, while others require that the handgun be concealed. Even if the carry law makes no specific provision that the handgun be concealed, it is still a good idea not to carry openly in public as people around you may react negatively to seeing a firearm. LE agencies in states with "open carry" handgun laws have gone on record as saying they may not be able to legally prevent you from carrying openly, but they'll nail you on other charges like creating a public disturbance.
Open carry can also make you a potential target for criminals. Consider this scenario: if an armed criminal walks into a convenience store with the intent of robbing it, and he sees a customer openly carrying a firearm, who do you think the criminal will shoot first?
It's best to be discreet and carry concealed, even if the state allows open carry.
As for waving a pistol around and firing randomly into the air, well, you can certainly do that... until the first round from an LEO's gun takes you down.
Here is a link to the FAQ section of Minnesota's handgun carry law. It is representative of similar laws in other states, and might help dispel any misconceptions you have about carrying handguns here.
In most states, any law-abiding citizen or PR can legally purchase and own firearms approved for sale in this country, without need of any kind of permit. But if you want to carry a hangun (concealed or openly) in public, you need the relevant permit (the exception being states like Vermont which allow you to carry openly without the need for any kind of permit).
MG