Our naval helios quality compromised??
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Our tanks come with amphibious equipment as wellOriginally posted by tripwire:you sure or not? one M1 ABRAM tank only cost US$5 million... our 120mm gun tank alone cost US$7 million dollar??!!
our tank either must be made of diamond or it can fly!!
furthermoresingapore GDP DIDNT shrink!!!
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/keystats/hist/gdp1.html
in fact in 2004, it went up by over 8 percent!! hitting an all time record of 180 billion!! in real value based on 1995 market price!
6percent of 180billion GDP is a staggering 10.8 billion dollar or US$6.5billion (of course, MINDEF never hit that high
)
i kinda thinking you are lying... i seriously doubt your additional allegations such as the RSN helicopter is "double" downgraded... is trustworthy at all.
i think you are lying your heads off!!
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It's not easy to find a tank for singapore, you need a tank with 3G datalink communication with other tanks and apache helicopters , a tank which can move while firing , heavy armour , fast speed , able to hold fuel , high safety , rushes fast in jungles , amphibious , so on and so forth.
Can SG find it? Certainly Tough.
and a quantity of 350 tanks isn't easy at all.
All i know is that our tanks are definitely much better then the Polish T-72 tanks.
Thats one thing i can assure you. -
Just my opinion , the main cost of today tank is vehtronics not the vehicle itself.
For LT to cost abt USD7mil per unit, I believe you are talking a lot of latest technology, for example thermal imaging, autotracking, BMS,perhaps even hybrid electrical/diesel engine.
As for modern MBT, nowaday easily cost USD10mil or more , so it is not cheap anymore.
The thing is , do we need such a high tech stuff in our new LT just for fire support and secondary anti tank role???
No , we don't. I think a cost of USD3mil to 5mil should be sufficient. In fact we should take our time getting those new LT in, say 50 units per year, and we could upgrade them with high tech stuff later when it is necessary or the price is right, becos at the moment, the current threats are not that high anyway.
But we do need to have new LT, becos the need is there, firstly those SM1 is already very old, it is not as reliable, in fact , I believe they should replace them in 80s instead of upgraded them in the first place, secondly it is no more offered sufficient protection against new threat like 25mm cannon which will be very common in the near future.
As for NGF, it is something that we must have, to maintian the quality edge over our closer rival, a small initial number is fine becos we still hold the edge of having Awacs and the best WVR & BVR weapon, our rival at the moment cannot afford to have large qty of high tech a/c anyway.
As for new subs, the Viking program itself could be scrapped, and even it is not , we talking abt something after 2012 at least, so it is still too early to talk abt Viking subs.
As for the offer of 2 subs from Sweden, they are talking abt the Vastergotland class , Swedish is downsizing their subs fleet, therefore 2 of the 4 Vastergotland class subs are going for "early retirement" and have been offered to us.
The other 2 boats , Swedish Navy have upgraded them with AIP etc and renamed as the Sodermanland class .
If we take up the offer, we will most likely go for the same upgrades , which mean we will have the first AIP boats in SEA.
( MY's two Scorpene are non AIP, Indon may get another 2 U209s, total 4 U209s, Thailand at the moment are looking at purchasing 2 old Israeli Gal boats)
So getting the two Sodermanland class is certainly not downgrading , in fact it will be the most stealthy boats in SEA!!! -
Do not worry, Singaporean! The S70B is abit old technology but still better then the super lynx which some of the neighbour are using. Between the 2 heli, technological about the same except S70B is a bigger heli with better range, load and wider scope of mission.
The training aircraft that RSAF interested should be the PC-21 from swiss. Number around 24 together with YFC. -
Originally posted by ah_kwang:
???? Contract already signed in Jan ??? What talking you ?
Singapore revives naval helicopter competition
Singapore has issued a revised tender for six naval helicopters in a newly reduced configuration, restarting a procurement delayed two years by budget constraints, writes Brendan Sobie.
Eurocopter, NH Industries and Sikorsky received a new invitation to tender late last month and have until 1 June to respond with bids for the AS532C Cougar, NH90 and S-70, respectively, say industry sources.
The three manufacturers, originally shortlisted in 2001, submitted a second round of bids late last year. But Singapore let the bids expire at the end of March without selecting a winner, presumably because all three exceeded the budget.
[b]Sources say Singapore, in an attempt to curb costs, has reduced the capability and quantity of sensors and weapons to be installed on the helicopters. Singapore is also requesting only four helicopters to be delivered fully equipped, with options to buy additional equipment for the other two later.
In previous tenders Singapore asked for costings on six to eight fully equipped helicopters for six new frigates to be delivered from 2005. The new bids will be valid through 31 March 2005, suggesting a contract by the end of the current fiscal year.
Sorry to bring up this old topic about our naval helios. But it's the first time I saw this article from flight international about the reduced capability. Seems quite unlikely that Mindef has budget problems. Brings me to think whether will our NGF's capability be compromised, hopefully not. If not we won't be able to fully exploit the technology of Rafale and F15T. Also, I'm wondering whether it is possible that budget problems led to the delayed annoucement in NGF selection.
P.S. If this posts happens to be a repeat, I'm truly sorry and pls lead me to the original post as I haven't been chasing up about developments of our Naval helios.[/b]
The Straits Times, - Saturday, January 22 2005
Also Mindef webpage.
MINDEF has signed a contract with Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation of the United States to acquire six new Sikorsky S-70B naval helicopters which will operate off the Republic of Singapore NavyÂ’s (RSN) new frigates.
The acquisition of naval helicopters, equipped with advanced anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare sensors and weapons, is a significant milestone in the RSNÂ’s force development. The naval helicopters are projected for delivery to the RSN between 2008 and 2010. This acquisition will enhance the RSNÂ’s capability to undertake a wide spectrum of missions and carry out its mission of defending Singapore and its vital sea lines of communications more effectively. -
Will the NGF selection be annunce by this month ?
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Who will know!! But the delivery date will sure be delay due to budget constraint. Number more likily to be around 8 only.Originally posted by wkl:Will the NGF selection be annunce by this month ?
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pardon me but what does AIP stand for?Originally posted by gary1910:If we take up the offer, we will most likely go for the same upgrades , which mean we will have the first AIP boats in SEA.
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Air Independent Propulsion, additional unit for diesel boats to remain submerged under water for weeks, diesel boat w/o such unit will have to snorkel for air after at most a week of submerged patrol, so to run their diesel engine to recharge the batteries.Originally posted by YI:pardon me but what does AIP stand for?
Thus with longer submerged duration, the boat will be more stealthy and thus more deadly!!!! -
And not to forget that the width cannot be more then 3m.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:It's not easy to find a tank for singapore, you need a tank with 3G datalink communication with other tanks and apache helicopters , a tank which can move while firing , heavy armour , fast speed , able to hold fuel , high safety , rushes fast in jungles , amphibious , so on and so forth.
Can SG find it? Certainly Tough.
and a quantity of 350 tanks isn't easy at all.
All i know is that our tanks are definitely much better then the Polish T-72 tanks.
Thats one thing i can assure you. -
i think that 6 helos won't be enough. considering there are 6 frigates, and that the helos can't possibly airworthy 100% of the time, there will be periods where boats won't have their birds.
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additional heli will be bought at a later time...Originally posted by branzzz:i think that 6 helos won't be enough. considering there are 6 frigates, and that the helos can't possibly airworthy 100% of the time, there will be periods where boats won't have their birds.
SAF always buys things in batches... so as not to overstrain the defence budget as well as keeping our eyes open for future technological advances...
remember our F-16A/B? we bought only 8 back then..... now we have over 60 F-16C/D block 52 and 52+
looking from our initial 8 falcon A/B purchae... who would have think that F-16 falcon would become our main pillar in air superiority? -
You're right. That's why we can buy so many things with our budget. On the other hand, they should also consider consolidating the no. of overseas training grounds. this should help to save some money as well.Originally posted by tripwire:additional heli will be bought at a later time...
SAF always buys things in batches... so as not to overstrain the defence budget as well as keeping our eyes open for future technological advances...
remember our F-16A/B? we bought only 8 back then..... now we have over 60 F-16C/D block 52 and 52+
looking from our initial 8 falcon A/B purchae... who would have think that F-16 falcon would become our main pillar in air superiority?
Even countries like UK and S Korea got to scale down their purchases becos of budget constraints. New weapons are gettting more and more expensive. there's a limit on how much we can spend. -
As for submarine, I would like to post some info that will shock everyone here!!!
It was initially posted by IAF in the new forum where a Swedish guy posted some info of our Challenger class sub in another forum:signatory wrote:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=52849&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=16&sid=60e0cc16addfd7464671088937bd5106
The Swedish success in the Baltic sea, North sea and especially the big mediterranian exercise (Sweden had 100% win, 0 losses in 'Death match' engagements by and against sea and air forces. With the sub HMS Halland of Gotland class) did make the Americans interested but it wasn't until a Singaporian Swedish-trained, and equipped with a Swedish sub (altho actually not of Gotland class) penetrated the defense of a U.S CVN that the bells really rang over there... for the first time, a submarine stood ready to fire its torpedoes against a US nuclear aircraft carrier.
You're right, it's not for any small reason they pull a non-NATO member over half the world for year long exercises. In order to prepare for the future, you need to train and fight with the best.
IAF wrote:
Hi signatory, this is interesting... Are you refering to ex-sjoormens? Would you be kind enough to elaborate?
signatory wrote:
yeah.. unfortunately I don't know which one of the subs from 'Project Riken' took part in that exercise but yes ex-sjöormen class. Of course project Riken ment 6 years of upgrades with the last of the 4 subs delivered in 2001. Training of crews, engineers and sharing of documentation were also part of that project. ...............
That's shocking rite?!?
Our old Challenger class managed to penetrate a USN's CVN battle group defence and targeted a CVN!!!!
That tell us how good our submariners are and how steathy our old Challenger boats!!!!
So dun play play!!! -
Was involved in that exercise....former submariner.....can c the pride on our faces when we sail past them at CNB...33 crews vs over 6000 crews of the USNOriginally posted by gary1910:As for submarine, I would like to post some info that will shock everyone here!!!
It was initially posted by IAF in the new forum where a Swedish guy posted some info of our Challenger class sub in another forum:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=52849&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=16&sid=60e0cc16addfd7464671088937bd5106
That's shocking rite?!?
Our old Challenger class managed to penetrate a USN's CVN battle group defence and targeted a CVN!!!!
That tell us how good our submariners are and how steathy our old Challenger boats!!!!
So dun play play!!! -
Yeah I read the post from Militaryphotos.net...Originally posted by gary1910:As for submarine, I would like to post some info that will shock everyone here!!!
It was initially posted by IAF in the new forum where a Swedish guy posted some info of our Challenger class sub in another forum:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=52849&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=16&sid=60e0cc16addfd7464671088937bd5106
That's shocking rite?!?
Our old Challenger class managed to penetrate a USN's CVN battle group defence and targeted a CVN!!!!
That tell us how good our submariners are and how steathy our old Challenger boats!!!!
So dun play play!!!
Impressive.I always knew our submariner corps had the right stuff.Never look down on even the smallest and oldest piece of machinery.They might just surprise you.And the USN learnt a valuable lesson in littoral combat..especially sensor-wise. -
It seem that "signatory" was refering to an exe in Baltic(maybe I am wrong), was there another exe that have the same result???Originally posted by riken1974:Was involved in that exercise....former submariner.....can c the pride on our faces when we sail past them at CNB...33 crews vs over 6000 crews of the USN
BTW which boat isit? -
There's already been a few naval exercises with the American Carrier Group transiting thru s'pore...our boat was tasked to break thru the ASW escort take a snapshot of the carrier thru the periscope n sent back to CNV who present it as a gift to CINCPAC...sorry can't disclose which boat i was in...had my fair share of fun and adventure when i was with the silent service.....signed the official secret act.......will have lots of troubles..hope u can understand...Originally posted by gary1910:It seem that "signatory" was refering to an exe in Baltic(maybe I am wrong), was there another exe that have the same result???
BTW which boat isit?
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Sailors of the deep.Originally posted by riken1974:There's already been a few naval exercises with the American Carrier Group transiting thru s'pore...our boat was tasked to break thru the ASW escort take a snapshot of the carrier thru the periscope n sent back to CNV who present it as a gift to CINCPAC...sorry can't disclose which boat i was in...had my fair share of fun and adventure when i was with the silent service.....signed the official secret act.......will have lots of troubles..hope u can understand... -
Thanks anyway, it sure rang bell all over US Navy Dept!!Originally posted by riken1974:There's already been a few naval exercises with the American Carrier Group transiting thru s'pore...our boat was tasked to break thru the ASW escort take a snapshot of the carrier thru the periscope n sent back to CNV who present it as a gift to CINCPAC...sorry can't disclose which boat i was in...had my fair share of fun and adventure when i was with the silent service.....signed the official secret act.......will have lots of troubles..hope u can understand...
And rang more bells for the navies of the region!!!
I wonder why our subs is performing better even compare to the Gotland, perhaps it is due to the small size of our boats?
Or perhaps becos of the littoral water that give us the advantages? -
let's give our submariners a round of applause... they made us proud... to be called singaporeans.
by the way... did the americans knew you guys were gonna be lurking around or they happen to be on "off" mode when you guys decided to give them a "shot" for posterity?
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It was meant to be an ASW exercise.....they were out hunting for us.....from ASW helos, P-3C Orion, Sonobouy, frigate, cruiser.....wonder if satelite was involved in tracking us....anyway left the navy liao...Originally posted by tripwire:let's give our submariners a round of applause... they made us proud... to be called singaporeans.
by the way... did the americans knew you guys were gonna be lurking around or they happen to be on "off" mode when you guys decided to give them a "shot" for posterity? -
wonder why our subs is performing better even compare to the Gotland, perhaps it is due to the small size of our boats?
Don't think this has anything to do with size, at least compared to Gotland. Gotland is about 60mx6m (1500 tons) while Challenger is about 50mx6m (1100 tons). Not that different really.
I would say tactics and training play a very important part. You need to know your boat really well too. Know where your noise source is and know how to control your noise level to stay ultra quiet. -
*SOLID siah* Way to go guys! Glad to know that it is the "soft" side of the weapons that counts and not just the hard tech stuff (which does matter to some extent).Originally posted by riken1974:It was meant to be an ASW exercise.....they were out hunting for us.....from ASW helos, P-3C Orion, Sonobouy, frigate, cruiser.....wonder if satelite was involved in tracking us....anyway left the navy liao... -
pl read more in info in dd 05.08.2005 for CVN and nuke sub 'sank' in ex.
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=144028&page=1
''Strengths of of defense capabality''