Our naval helios quality compromised??
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Singapore revives naval helicopter competition
Singapore has issued a revised tender for six naval helicopters in a newly reduced configuration, restarting a procurement delayed two years by budget constraints, writes Brendan Sobie.
Eurocopter, NH Industries and Sikorsky received a new invitation to tender late last month and have until 1 June to respond with bids for the AS532C Cougar, NH90 and S-70, respectively, say industry sources.
The three manufacturers, originally shortlisted in 2001, submitted a second round of bids late last year. But Singapore let the bids expire at the end of March without selecting a winner, presumably because all three exceeded the budget.
Sources say Singapore, in an attempt to curb costs, has reduced the capability and quantity of sensors and weapons to be installed on the helicopters. Singapore is also requesting only four helicopters to be delivered fully equipped, with options to buy additional equipment for the other two later.
In previous tenders Singapore asked for costings on six to eight fully equipped helicopters for six new frigates to be delivered from 2005. The new bids will be valid through 31 March 2005, suggesting a contract by the end of the current fiscal year.
Sorry to bring up this old topic about our naval helios. But it's the first time I saw this article from flight international about the reduced capability. Seems quite unlikely that Mindef has budget problems. Brings me to think whether will our NGF's capability be compromised, hopefully not. If not we won't be able to fully exploit the technology of Rafale and F15T. Also, I'm wondering whether it is possible that budget problems led to the delayed annoucement in NGF selection.
P.S. If this posts happens to be a repeat, I'm truly sorry and pls lead me to the original post as I haven't been chasing up about developments of our Naval helios. -
i dun think the report is accurate, seeing the fact that recently the govt annouce that mindef will not suffer ani buget cuts but the rest of the ministry does.....
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Where is the source of the data?
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Yup, went up more than USD5bil, but we do need to cut some expenditure in other area of defence, the reason is there are many big ticket purchases in the next years, NGF is one, then SM1 replacement, 3G transformation, new subs perhaps.
All this means more money needed for all these new stuff, so we indeed need to cut some corner in other areas if we to see all these coming on line by the end of the decade. -
it's from flight international...Originally posted by LazerLordz:Where is the source of the data? -
true. makes sense. however, i thought our budget comes annually, does this year's leftover includes in next year budget? seems very ironic to say that we are buying so much high tech and expensive toys while at the same time cutting cost of equipment and downsizing it's quality.Originally posted by gary1910:Yup, went up more than USD5bil, but we do need to cut some expenditure in other area of defence, the reason is there are many big ticket purchases in the next years, NGF is one, then SM1 replacement, 3G transformation, new subs perhaps.
All this means more money needed for all these new stuff, so we indeed need to cut some corner in other areas if we to see all these coming on line by the end of the decade. -
Yes, SAF has been cutting cost since 2-3 years ago. The way it do it is smart, so that no one will relise. Examples, NS reduce by 6 mth (reason 3G less man power).
Naval suppose to buy 8 most advance heli (eg NH90 & UH70R&F). But because of reduce cost. Sg delay the heli buy 2 years, reduce the number by 2 and buy the old UH70B which was bulid in 1982. There will be some upgrade and lot of down grade on SG UH70B.
NGF has been delay and the number now has beed reduce to 8 only. (instead of 20 for the first time buy)
Training plane to replace S211 and SF260 will only be replace by a single type of cheaper plane.
C130H will not be replace and will upgrade later will budget allow.
SM1 will not replace in the next 5 years.
The SAF did not mention this in order not to affect the moral of the ppl.Originally posted by ah_kwang:
Singapore revives naval helicopter competition
Singapore has issued a revised tender for six naval helicopters in a newly reduced configuration, restarting a procurement delayed two years by budget constraints, writes Brendan Sobie.
Eurocopter, NH Industries and Sikorsky received a new invitation to tender late last month and have until 1 June to respond with bids for the AS532C Cougar, NH90 and S-70, respectively, say industry sources.
The three manufacturers, originally shortlisted in 2001, submitted a second round of bids late last year. But Singapore let the bids expire at the end of March without selecting a winner, presumably because all three exceeded the budget.
[b]Sources say Singapore, in an attempt to curb costs, has reduced the capability and quantity of sensors and weapons to be installed on the helicopters. Singapore is also requesting only four helicopters to be delivered fully equipped, with options to buy additional equipment for the other two later.
In previous tenders Singapore asked for costings on six to eight fully equipped helicopters for six new frigates to be delivered from 2005. The new bids will be valid through 31 March 2005, suggesting a contract by the end of the current fiscal year.
Sorry to bring up this old topic about our naval helios. But it's the first time I saw this article from flight international about the reduced capability. Seems quite unlikely that Mindef has budget problems. Brings me to think whether will our NGF's capability be compromised, hopefully not. If not we won't be able to fully exploit the technology of Rafale and F15T. Also, I'm wondering whether it is possible that budget problems led to the delayed annoucement in NGF selection.
P.S. If this posts happens to be a repeat, I'm truly sorry and pls lead me to the original post as I haven't been chasing up about developments of our Naval helios.[/b] -
btw any news on the selection on the new generation fighter?
so is rafale, eurofighter or f-15?? -
I dun think it is accurate... As dun think such would be 'leaked' out
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i am just wandering... where did our money go. if SAF budget never drop... and SAF is still cutting cost... the savings could be in the hundreds of millions of dollars... where did those money go? black ops?Originally posted by UTAS:Yes, SAF has been cutting cost since 2-3 years ago. The way it do it is smart, so that no one will relise. Examples, NS reduce by 6 mth (reason 3G less man power).
Naval suppose to buy 8 most advance heli (eg NH90 & UH70R&F). But because of reduce cost. Sg delay the heli buy 2 years, reduce the number by 2 and buy the old UH70B which was bulid in 1982. There will be some upgrade and lot of down grade on SG UH70B.
NGF has been delay and the number now has beed reduce to 8 only. (instead of 20 for the first time buy)
Training plane to replace S211 and SF260 will only be replace by a single type of cheaper plane.
C130H will not be replace and will upgrade later will budget allow.
SM1 will not replace in the next 5 years.
The SAF did not mention this in order not to affect the moral of the ppl.
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In the past, SAF budget was like 10+5. 10 from the official defence budget and 5 from somewhere you not suppose know. Now is like 10+1.5.
The new 120mm tank is too expensive to produce now. 350 tank was plan. 350*US7million= 2.45billion, plus other support cost will be around 3.5 b for the whole replacment of SM1.
Sub was also delay. Instead of 4 vicking plan, it is going to replace by only 2 gotland with AIP. I wonder new or secondhand?
.Originally posted by tripwire:i am just wandering... where did our money go. if SAF budget never drop... and SAF is still cutting cost... the savings could be in the hundreds of millions of dollars... where did those money go? black ops? -
It is so high price for the new 120mm tank : US7million per unit ?
All the while I thought ST was facing technical problem for the new tank hence it delay.
For the NGF, DSTA require supplier to supply by 2008 but if keep delay , how to expect supplier deliver in time.Originally posted by UTAS:In the past, SAF budget was like 10+5. 10 from the official defence budget and 5 from somewhere you not suppose know. Now is like 10+1.5.
The new 120mm tank is too expensive to produce now. 350 tank was plan. 350*US7million= 2.45billion, plus other support cost will be around 3.5 b for the whole replacment of SM1.
Sub was also delay. Instead of 4 vicking plan, it is going to replace by only 2 gotland with AIP. I wonder new or secondhand?
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I think we will not have a one-to-one replacement of the SM1.Rather, i think 200 tanks should be an alright amount.
It's interesting..the percentage of the GDP spent on Defence has not changed, but our GDP has fallen..or has no one noticed this? -
SAF should buy 20 more B60 F16 before deciding weather to buy F35 7 years later. The F16 price should be around US3.5m per plane. Stop the NGF, save the $$$, but will SAF do that???? It will lower the moral of the ppl. It need $$$ to keep to source of plane no dout it got it advantage.
UH70B is 2 times downgrade of the present UH70F. The UH70B(1982) purchase has aready affect the moral of the naval. First class ship, secound class heli.Originally posted by wkl:It is so high price for the new 120mm tank : US7million per unit ?
All the while I thought ST was facing technical problem for the new tank hence it delay.
For the NGF, DSTA require supplier to supply by 2008 but if keep delay , how to expect supplier deliver in time. -
A few years ago DSTA already announce to all the suppliers BAE, Dassult, Boeing on the NGF requirement and DSTA shall know the price a few years ago.Originally posted by UTAS:SAF should buy 20 more B60 F16 before deciding weather to buy F35 7 years later. The F16 price should be around US3.5m per plane. Stop the NGF, save the $$$, but will SAF do that???? It will lower the moral of the ppl. It need $$$ to keep to source of plane no dout it got it advantage.
UH70B is 2 times downgrade of the present UH70F. The UH70B(1982) purchase has aready affect the moral of the naval. First class ship, secound class heli.
And all these suppliers let you evaluate their products for so many years and so many times and now you tell people it is very much out of the budget. Then all these suppliers will not believe you anymore in future for any other evaluation. -
Beside budget consraint, also because of the Sg$ value drop by more then 30% espically to Euro. This is way is delay and the qulity reduce to 8 only.Originally posted by wkl:A few years ago DSTA already announce to all the suppliers BAE, Dassult, Boeing on the NGF requirement and DSTA shall know the price a few years ago.
And all these suppliers let you evaluate their products for so many years and so many times and now you tell people it is very much out of the budget. Then all these suppliers will not believe you anymore in future for any other evaluation. -
You said Euro $, that means it will be Rafale ? As F15S is US$ right ?Originally posted by UTAS:Beside budget consraint, also because of the Sg$ value drop by more then 30% espically to Euro. This is way is delay and the qulity reduce to 8 only. -
Korean F15K US$105m p/p include others. US$75m for sg F15 p/p alone. I think is too expensive, Sg shouldnot buy it.Originally posted by wkl:You said Euro $, that means it will be Rafale ? As F15S is US$ right ?
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you sure or not? one M1 ABRAM tank only cost US$5 million... our 120mm gun tank alone cost US$7 million dollar??!!
our tank either must be made of diamond or it can fly!!
furthermoresingapore GDP DIDNT shrink!!!
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/keystats/hist/gdp1.html
in fact in 2004, it went up by over 8 percent!! hitting an all time record of 180 billion!! in real value based on 1995 market price!
6percent of 180billion GDP is a staggering 10.8 billion dollar or US$6.5billion (of course, MINDEF never hit that high )
i kinda thinking you are lying... i seriously doubt your additional allegations such as the RSN helicopter is "double" downgraded... is trustworthy at all.
i think you are lying your heads off!!
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this is totally garbage!!! how do you know that in the past SAF budget was like 10+5?? you work in mindef or you work in minfin??Originally posted by UTAS:In the past, SAF budget was like 10+5. 10 from the official defence budget and 5 from somewhere you not suppose know. Now is like 10+1.5.
The new 120mm tank is too expensive to produce now. 350 tank was plan. 350*US7million= 2.45billion, plus other support cost will be around 3.5 b for the whole replacment of SM1.
Sub was also delay. Instead of 4 vicking plan, it is going to replace by only 2 gotland with AIP. I wonder new or secondhand?
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and now, how do you know its 10+1.5 at present?? if this information is classified, you are in big trouble spilling it here... but i seriously doubt the authencity of your information.
the reason is clear, mindef defence budget is almost 30 to 40 percent of govt total expenditure...
how do you add more money to mindef and hide it from govt budget??
especially when the amount you are claiming is almost equivalent up to 20 percent of total singapore govt expenditure!!!
we are talking about billions of dollars of additional expenditures per year which over a period of 1 or 2 decades could add up to dozens of billions of dollars, enough to buy RSN 2 fully equipped CVN!!! -
lastly... singapore aint short of money...
from year 2000 to 2004.. singapore national reserves has continue to rise
http://secure.mas.gov.sg/masmcm/bin/pt1Official_Foreign_Reserves.htm
within the last 4 years... singapore's total official foreign reserves increased by US$32.5billion!! rising from US$80billion to US$112.8billion!
every organization tries to cut cost... its a virtue... but singapore would never compromise on defence spending.. but that does not mean we give SAF a blank check...
so SAF must conserve whenever it can... MINDEF do not enjoy extra budgetary funds like malaysia does... singapore MUST spend within their means and allocated funds...
the only exception was when RSAF purchase the E-2C -
i am just wandering... where did our money go. if SAF budget never drop... and SAF is still cutting cost... the savings could be in the hundreds of millions of dollars... where did those money go? black ops?
A lot of money has gone to counter terrorism since 9/11. You see all the extra sercurity measures, x-ray machines etc. They don't come cheap.
A big portion of the SAF budget also goes to the salary of the regulars. -
you sure or not? one M1 ABRAM tank only cost US$5 million... our 120mm gun tank alone cost US$7 million dollar??!!
BTW, tanks are not cheap anymore. The new EFV the amercians are building cost US$7mil per vehicle.
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SAF budget for salary? when did we suddenly raise all the regulars pay or when did we suddenly increase the number of regulars that we have to cut corners to pay their salary???Originally posted by oerlikon:A lot of money has gone to counter terrorism since 9/11. You see all the extra sercurity measures, x-ray machines etc. They don't come cheap.
A big portion of the SAF budget also goes to the salary of the regulars.
and... X-ray machines and other extra security measures... shouldnt those be under ministry of home affair rather then MINDEF??
last i check.. home affair budget is not linked to MINDEF budget leh. -
what got this have to do with the claim that singapore tanks is US$7million EA? unless singapore is buying the american EFV.. which i doubt...Originally posted by oerlikon:BTW, tanks are not cheap anymore. The new EFV the amercians are building cost US$7mil per vehicle.