What are the possible weaknesses of our military?
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Sorry to disappoint, am not arty expert (never said was anything than dirt solider). It does not need an arty trained person, to see that simple extrapolation in calculating a 30 min arty session is carried out at 'sustained mode' rather than 'normal rate'.
It like a card game which we played in Pri school; by matching/challanging one system (cars, aeroplanes or ships) against each other, to see who wins.
Even rudementary wargames avoid making simplistic bigger calibre vs more tubes comparison to resolve gameplay. -
my apologies... i have too harsh..
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Tis alright.
More to the point. I have had opportunity (first hand) to observe Indonesia Bre-Mob (their police reserve, Singaporeans call "Ang Chia lang") training local militia (Pam Sukarsa). Whew, they are more serious than our NSF BMT. One instructor was even involved in the Konfrantasi.
Many people outside singapore (not everyone I'd admit) has a hard life, using kerosene lamps, cookers, living literally hand-to-mouth.
Anything that can sway them is the promise of a better (?easier) life. The average Indonesian (outside Jakarta) survives on US$4 per day, has average of 4 children, sometimes cannot find work (not everyone is merely lazy). This is our regional environment. They are tougher, hungrier and more adept with their hands. Thay may lack technology, but have numbers (indonesia popn is 212m!!!)
Can our air-con, internet savy, fast food, mall rats 'carry the ball' into the next generation when many opt to defer or escape NS. Most if not all find it a 'pain' or 'trouble' to do reservist initially. How many can say they have passed their IPPT easily??
Singapore may have the guns, but we need the moral fibre to carry it, shoot when ordered and survive to preserve our way of life. -
We can also argue, these fellows will fight to have a better life, our mall rats will fight to preserve their high life too.Originally posted by baer:Tis alright.
More to the point. I have had opportunity (first hand) to observe Indonesia Bre-Mob (their police reserve, Singaporeans call "Ang Chia lang") training local militia (Pam Sukarsa). Whew, they are more serious than our NSF BMT. One instructor was even involved in the Konfrantasi.
Many people outside singapore (not everyone I'd admit) has a hard life, using kerosene lamps, cookers, living literally hand-to-mouth.
Anything that can sway them is the promise of a better (?easier) life. The average Indonesian (outside Jakarta) survives on US$4 per day, has average of 4 children, sometimes cannot find work (not everyone is merely lazy). This is our regional environment. They are tougher, hungrier and more adept with their hands. Thay may lack technology, but have numbers (indonesia popn is 212m!!!)
Can our air-con, internet savy, fast food, mall rats 'carry the ball' into the next generation when many opt to defer or escape NS. Most if not all find it a 'pain' or 'trouble' to do reservist initially. How many can say they have passed their IPPT easily??
Singapore may have the guns, but we need the moral fibre to carry it, shoot when ordered and survive to preserve our way of life.
Have you read Generation Kill , it talks about how the modern day Marine finds killing so detached, almost like a video game,and that our kids today with their senses honed on instant death dealing, we might be seeing more one sided battles,especially if you are sending packs of CS addled mall rats into combat with tech that is generations ahead of your enemy.
Lock and load, fire up the heavy metal and blast away like the enemy is not alive, just mere pixels.
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I think we've talked a lot about Army's weaknesses. Any idea how to overcome them?Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:OOI!! Topic about weakness in our army leh. Why all the brouhaha on that ASTROS crap? -
This is for FH 2000.Originally posted by baer:Sorry to disappoint, am not arty expert (never said was anything than dirt solider). It does not need an arty trained person, to see that simple extrapolation in calculating a 30 min arty session is carried out at 'sustained mode' rather than 'normal rate'.
It like a card game which we played in Pri school; by matching/challanging one system (cars, aeroplanes or ships) against each other, to see who wins.
Even rudementary wargames avoid making simplistic bigger calibre vs more tubes comparison to resolve gameplay.
Burst Rate 3 rounds within 15 to 20 seconds
Maximum Rate 6 rpm for a duration of 3 mins
Sustained Rate 2 rpm for 30 mins -
US soldiers in Korea didn't have the leg muscles to climb up hills like the Chinese peasant soldiers could.
Moral fibre is not enough, also need muscle fibre.
The Vietcong could fight all day on a handful of rice or fior. The Americans need constant resupply.
Our neighbours have troops whom are very attuned to the natural environment. This may not win wars but is a definite advantage.
But our troops know fighting in shopping malls better!!! -
The following was posted by a Malaysian in another forum in 2002. Very insightful view from the "other side". This guy's forum name is "tomel". Not all of it is relevant to the topic excpet that part about Malaysia having combat experience in the past and during recent UN ops. Singapore for obvious reasons, don't.
In time of conflict(unlikely)-SAF will use their airpower to support advancing armoured column (mainly upgraded AMX13 SMI,M60,M113,BIONIX IFV total 1500 units).Do forget that MAF has at its disposal app 1500 armoured vehicles (T72M1Z,SCORPION,SIBMAS AFSV,CONDOR,MIFV,ADNAN AIFV)-so in short there is a balance in the armoured capabilities.SAF used SPIKE,MILAN,106 RCL for anti tank duties,MAF used BHAKTAR SHIKAN(tow liked),METIS-M,ERYX,CR 90RRB,CARL GUSTAV,RPG 7(30,000 RPG 7 rounds ordered).In short SAF wont be able to take lighty the enemy firepower.Last but not least ,Malaysian govt is actively pursuing the effort to closed the present causeway and replace it with a second bridge.Reason-bridges can be blown up easily.With the bridges blowned away-only a handfull of AMX 10PAC could swimm across the Johore Straits.So all the hypes about SAF armoured forces -not true.
...Malaysian troops are highly trained and has gained respect from various countries during their UN mission.No matter how good is your air power ,ground troops still play the decisive roles.Why do MAF willing to spend app US$300M in NATO IFOR/SFOR ops in Bosnia?They need operational exposure in a real FIBUA with the rest of the world finest troops.During UNPROFOR mission ,MAF troops shared the same AOR with the British troops,yet the British willingly put their trust on MAF by utilising MAF commandos as the Brigade CRT.Malaysian troops twice rescued British soldiers (winter ops)and most of them never seen snow before in their life-still they could performed a sterling work.
Much has been said about the Bakara market incident,but not many peoples knows about the K2 roundabout incident which once again shown MAF abilities to perform under fire.In that incident 2 MAF soldiers,1 Kiwi,1 French(if i'm not mistaken)were killed .A numbers of UN peacekeepers taken hostage.MAF once again delivered -the hostages were freed after a special pysops/specops were conducted by MAF.Beside,MAF has decades of experience in COIN.In short MAF has a better soldiers in terms of field experiences.SAF soldiers mainly made of reservists-young boys and when was the last time they fired their weapons under fire?In the real wars -most of SAF soldiers would only last a few days in the jungle.Hardships during their early years in the village made MAF troops well adjusted to the harsh jungle.Singapore with the high rise apartments,luxury and so on wont be able to produced a high resistance soldiers.Most of the world best soldiers came from a harsh backgrounds.
As for the AH64D it wont be in Singapore till 2006(original due 200
but with the expectation of RMAF Rooivalk to enter service by 2006-they have to bring it home early.Helos wont make much impact cause MAF has about 2000 MANPADS launchers optimised for low level a/c.Derby could enter SAF and Popeye widely believed to be used by their Vipers.RMAF on the other hand never disclosed the types of AGM (Russian latest)offered along with the SU30MKM.
Singapore will lost any large scale battle with Malaysia-space factor.They would lost a huge no of lives if the city were attack with shells.The underground bunkers wont save them -at least for the first 5 minutes.By the end of 5 minutes-at least 15 percent of the island populations would be lost.this is the scary fact that pervent such things from happening. -
I would say our conventional troops are more like a uprated National Guard.Originally posted by tvdog:US soldiers in Korea didn't have the leg muscles to climb up hills like the Chinese peasant soldiers could.
Moral fibre is not enough, also need muscle fibre.
The Vietcong could fight all day on a handful of rice or fior. The Americans need constant resupply.
Our neighbours have troops whom are very attuned to the natural environment. This may not win wars but is a definite advantage.
But our troops know fighting in shopping malls better!!! -
Please lah, only a handful of the troops involved and you call it combat experience??Originally posted by tvdog:The following was posted by a Malaysian in another forum in 2002. Very insightful view from the "other side". This guy's forum name is "tomel". Not all of it is relevant to the topic excpet that part about Malaysia having combat experience in the past and during recent UN ops. Singapore for obvious reasons, don't.
Anyway , this posting got flamed over and over again in a military forum -
1.Those are the listed toys of SAF , those unlisted ones are even scarier.
In time of conflict(unlikely)-SAF will use their airpower to support advancing armoured column (mainly upgraded AMX13 SMI,M60,M113,BIONIX IFV total 1500 units).Do forget that MAF has at its disposal app 1500 armoured vehicles (T72M1Z,SCORPION,SIBMAS AFSV,CONDOR,MIFV,ADNAN AIFV)-so in short there is a balance in the armoured capabilities.SAF used SPIKE,MILAN,106 RCL for anti tank duties,MAF used BHAKTAR SHIKAN(tow liked),METIS-M,ERYX,CR 90RRB,CARL GUSTAV,RPG 7(30,000 RPG 7 rounds ordered).In short SAF wont be able to take lighty the enemy firepower.Last but not least ,Malaysian govt is actively pursuing the effort to closed the present causeway and replace it with a second bridge.Reason-bridges can be blown up easily.With the bridges blowned away-only a handfull of AMX 10PAC could swimm across the Johore Straits.So all the hypes about SAF armoured forces -not true.
...Malaysian troops are highly trained and has gained respect from various countries during their UN mission.No matter how good is your air power ,ground troops still play the decisive roles.Why do MAF willing to spend app US$300M in NATO IFOR/SFOR ops in Bosnia?They need operational exposure in a real FIBUA with the rest of the world finest troops.During UNPROFOR mission ,MAF troops shared the same AOR with the British troops,yet the British willingly put their trust on MAF by utilising MAF commandos as the Brigade CRT.Malaysian troops twice rescued British soldiers (winter ops)and most of them never seen snow before in their life-still they could performed a sterling work.
Much has been said about the Bakara market incident,but not many peoples knows about the K2 roundabout incident which once again shown MAF abilities to perform under fire.In that incident 2 MAF soldiers,1 Kiwi,1 French(if i'm not mistaken)were killed .A numbers of UN peacekeepers taken hostage.MAF once again delivered -the hostages were freed after a special pysops/specops were conducted by MAF.Beside,MAF has decades of experience in COIN.In short MAF has a better soldiers in terms of field experiences.SAF soldiers mainly made of reservists-young boys and when was the last time they fired their weapons under fire?In the real wars -most of SAF soldiers would only last a few days in the jungle.Hardships during their early years in the village made MAF troops well adjusted to the harsh jungle.Singapore with the high rise apartments,luxury and so on wont be able to produced a high resistance soldiers.Most of the world best soldiers came from a harsh backgrounds.
As for the AH64D it wont be in Singapore till 2006(original due 200but with the expectation of RMAF Rooivalk to enter service by 2006-they have to bring it home early.Helos wont make much impact cause MAF has about 2000 MANPADS launchers optimised for low level a/c.Derby could enter SAF and Popeye widely believed to be used by their Vipers.RMAF on the other hand never disclosed the types of AGM (Russian latest)offered along with the SU30MKM.
Singapore will lost any large scale battle with Malaysia-space factor.They would lost a huge no of lives if the city were attack with shells.The underground bunkers wont save them -at least for the first 5 minutes.By the end of 5 minutes-at least 15 percent of the island populations would be lost.this is the scary fact that pervent such things from happening.
2.RMAF Rooivalk compared to AH-64D Apache Longbow is like comparing F-4 Phantom to F-22.
3.AH-64D is designed as high-survivability helicopter even after being attacked by manpads.
4.Swedish radar makes it possible to detect shells.
5. SG pilots are israeli-trained and they have detachments in the USAF .
6.T72M1Z,SCORPION,SIBMAS AFSV,CONDOR,MIFV,ADNAN AIFV < No reactive armour , no add ons
7.Additional Gurkha contigent awaits you , in Singapore as well
and the writer have forgot to mention , the USAF aircrafts/navy ships parked here who might suddenly join in the war
To add it simply , Malaysia won't have an easy time occupying sg, imagine singaporeans losing their right , when occupied by them especially the chinese and indian population , cause they will definitely force their bumiputra policy.
Where-else , the next Operation Desert Storm will appear .
So it is highly unlikely that M'sia will attack SG -
Don't underestimate SG vipers , all of them carry israeli add-ons.
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Most troops in UN sponsered 'actions' are there for the foreign exchange (Forex), i.e. Bangladesh etc. Malaysia while not needing the Forex, is supportive of UN actions for the exposure.
But I'm sure that any such exposure will be limited to 'police actions'. Even the horrific scenes everyone is so impressed about depicted (one sided manner) in "Black Hawk Down" was more like a 'drive by' shoot and scoot than sustained FIBUA or anything close to a POI defence action.
Having real bullets flying in your direction does not always make you a better solider, just more aware of the vlaue of living!
My personal 2 cents - have a belief or conviction in what matters is more important than any new systems or gadget. -
Soldier for soldier, I think their Army are better than us. BUT I think our pilots and Navy folks are better than them.Originally posted by tvdog:The following was posted by a Malaysian in another forum in 2002. Very insightful view from the "other side". This guy's forum name is "tomel". Not all of it is relevant to the topic excpet that part about Malaysia having combat experience in the past and during recent UN ops. Singapore for obvious reasons, don't.
There is no way that they have better hardware than us. Besides, we have better logistics which will make a difference in any conflict. -
Here's a very old joke I remember from my NSF days - eons ago...
The Taiwanese refer to us as "Boy Scouts" cos they think our training is soft compared to theirs.
The Thais refer to our troops are "Iron men"or "robots". Were they impressed? Hardly. Apparently, during tactical movement through the jungles, a shot was fired. Thai troops all hit the ground. SAF troops remained standing trying to see where the shot came from.
This story is not unbelievable, I think I might have been one of those who remained standing. Cos I've never been shot at before. -
No doubt , the indigenous people of malaya who rescued the boys , are great jungle navigators.Originally posted by 84mmrr:Soldier for soldier, I think their Army are better than us. BUT I think our pilots and Navy folks are better than them.
There is no way that they have better hardware than us. Besides, we have better logistics which will make a difference in any conflict.
We grew up in a concrete jungle.. -
Personally,
Our army greatest weakness is our strength...
We have too many scholars at the top and no real army man. These people are theorist, how many of us know that the real people who know shit in the army is the RSMs and the CSMs.
Our officers are too soft. They are there because they do well in their 'Air' levels or 'O' Levels. But they have no understanding of warfare, moral, terrains. How many of us met bey gan officers during our NS?
Stop the over emphasis on paper and do the real stuff like the soldier's ability in leadership and warfare. I have no faith in our officers. Chee bye every exercise can only think of one think 'flank'... KNN... -
You should have seen those "gung-ho" officers during the early years of NS (1968-1969).Originally posted by yuppy4life:Personally,
Our army greatest weakness is our strength...
We have too many scholars at the top and no real army man. These people are theorist, how many of us know that the real people who know shit in the army is the RSMs and the CSMs.
Our officers are too soft. They are there because they do well in their 'Air' levels or 'O' Levels. But they have no understanding of warfare, moral, terrains. How many of us met bey gan officers during our NS?
Stop the over emphasis on paper and do the real stuff like the soldier's ability in leadership and warfare. I have no faith in our officers. Chee bye every exercise can only think of one think 'flank'... KNN...
The first and second batches were trained by the Israelis, and they improved on the Israelis methods to train the third and fourth batches.
Those trained by the tough Israelis graduated as gung-ho officers, with vast amount of initiative in improvising training and improving doctrines; and although seemingly haphazard the challenge was to improvise and make training interesting.
The first batch of NS Officers were drawn from beyond those in the Civil Service and were largely from those born before the Enlistment Year Group of 1949. This resulted in pent up resentments, which resulted in the Third and Fourth batches taking the brunt of their frustrations.
Those in the Third and Forth Batches of Officers and NCOs were largely from 'O' and 'A' Level students, and were more enlightened towards NS, and were a source of inspiration of comradeship and camaradie, which resulted in their NS foot soldiers siging up as Regulars.
"Flanking" has been the obvious reaction to counter any ambush or surprise attack; and is widely accepted as standard reaction by all Armed Forces, as the best form of defense is to attack.
Have you ever been chased by a pack of dogs when training in the rural areas ?
Watch how these dogs will react when instead of you running away from the dogs (with them chasing hot behind), you suddenly turn around and swing any object at the dogs, scream loudly and run towards the dogs like a mad man. -
The only weakness that we as Singaporeans truly have is that when there is a War Situation, nobody comes to the frontline.
I take this scenario very seriously because during the SARs incident , it is not our Medical Corps from the SAF to take the frontlines in the SARs prevention efforts. Those regulars and "Officers" Simply waited for instructions from above with no real intiative to bring themselves to the front planning tables.
Infact, it was contracted out. I participated in the Effort and was accepted employment for this contractual effort because i was Medic trained in the SAF.
I wouldnt be surprise with the jobs locally given to sub-contractors which simply dismisses its local staff because they were (too expensive) to keep, there are more non-ns foreigners getting jobs than local uneployed. I find that from now and the future of all NSF wont be bothered to turn up unless there is threat of Jailing and DB.
So in case a real war-scenario , the local NSMEN wont probably be bothered because there wont be DB or Jailing when its all over.
So we're just part of the NS- Nice Show. -
I know what you are trying to say. Army training has indeed gotten very soft. Singaporeans used to be a lot tougher but it is inevitable that as the standards of living improved overall, there will be a corresponding drop in "toughness".Originally posted by Atobe:You should have seen those "gung-ho" officers during the early years of NS (1968-1969).
The first and second batches were trained by the Israelis, and they improved on the Israelis methods to train the third and fourth batches.
Have you ever been chased by a pack of dogs when training in the rural areas ?
Watch how these dogs will react when instead of you running away from the dogs (with them chasing hot behind), you suddenly turn around and swing any object at the dogs, scream loudly and run towards the dogs like a mad man.
So you can say that SAF emphasis on technology as a force-multiplyer is a result of this natural drop in "toughness" and of course the drop in birthrate.
But man, don't know what you are trying to say with that "running away from dogs" scenario... -
In my opinion our weaknesses is:
- We have "text-book" generals-(look at the CDF..fat bugger...I belief he cannot even finish his 2.4km in 15mins!).
-Increase the service period from 2yrs to the old 2.5 or even 3yrs to ensure 100% understanding of the officer,specialists and men's tasks and job scope.
-Attach regulars and possibility of NSFs to real world ops.
-Be more transparent in findings of deaths caused by training accidents.This will ensure public faith in the SAF.Cover-ups only stain the good name of the organization.
-Run the SAF as a military organization,not as a goddamned CORPORATION!!!This is the biggest turn off for me manz..look at the OCS website...OCS Corporation.This is an army not a friggin mercenary!
-Lower reliance of technology..look at how the VietCong and NVA beat the US mighty technological superiority with the bare essentials.
-Increase troop survivability equipment like body armour,ballistic shields etc.(they look real impressive and are useful for FIBUA.Saw the one SAF is using.Will say that it will save alot of lives in combat)
Thats my 2 cents worth. -
Well said, SpecOps, of course I would have to take your word for it as during my time the Army didn't feel like a corporation.
I don't know who the CDF is, but fat is OK as some of the best war leaders couldn't run 2.4km, even some of Israel's. Example, Sharon was what you call a "fat bugger", but boy, he a respected war leader even by the Arabs. -
Insightful???Originally posted by tvdog:The following was posted by a Malaysian in another forum in 2002. Very insightful view from the "other side". This guy's forum name is "tomel". Not all of it is relevant to the topic excpet that part about Malaysia having combat experience in the past and during recent UN ops. Singapore for obvious reasons, don't.
Hardly.
Here the orbat of MAF:
62 X PT 91M(T72M1Z) MBT (TO BE DELIVERED+ ARV,AVLB) ,only 48 MBTs.
26 X SCORPION 90
184 X SIBMAS 90 AFSV
211 X ADNAN AIFV (10 variant including some ARMED WITH 25MM BUSHMASTER & Baktar Shikan ATGW :
116 IFV,8 ATGW ,10 Mortar carrier,24 Command, 25 Ambulance,13 signal, 7 Fitter & lastly 8 Recovery.)
111 X MIFV (MODERNISED KOREAN KIFV)
460 X RADPANZER CONDOR (SOME ARMED WITH 20MM)
25 X STORMER APC(SOME ARMED WITH 20MM)
Total :
48 MBTs,
210( Scorpion/Sibmas) LT/Fire support AFVs
347 ( Adnan/KIFV/Stomer) tracked IFVs
460 Condor wheeled APC
Add all together is only 1,065 AFV, hardly comparable to SAF.
And the main AFV is the Condor, which is proven to be a death trap in Somalia, and it is well known that it has poor tactical mobility, even the MAF themselves said that it could not be used in swampy terrain. So basically useless in the forrested area of MY.
In fact , the only well armoured vehicles in MAF is the PT-91 MBT, the rest could not be even compare to our Bionix.
As for Rooivalk , that is almost ancient history.
As for the causeway, the Jap did not used it becos the Brits had blown it with high explosive during WW2, but that they did not stop them from landing , and it will be foolish for us to use the causeway becos it could easily a choke point, that is why we have so many bridging equipment, FCU, FCEP etc.
As for combat experiences, what is it anyway?
Did they go thru a full combined arms warfare recently?
UN peacekeeping mission is not true combat experiences, in fact the MAF itself is still at the moment building a full fledge combined arms doctrines, they are at least 20 years behind us on that aspect.
They are still waiting for the assets like army helo, MBTs,IFV etc all this will be fully deliverd by end of this decade, so before that their combined arms is truly lacking in asset, let alone fully trained in combined arms warfare.
In conclusion , he dun even know the true orbat of MAF, Rooivalk is a dream and to think that the causeway is the only way we could attack them is also a great mistake!!! -
Yah lor , Thinking your weapons and Warcrying can win is just as Crazy.
Right now any Leader call to mobilise for War will be just as quickly removed from the Podium and beaten to the ground then send to the asylum.
Who needs War ?
Keeping those artifacts there and hiring Showbiz staff to look after them is the only way to maintain peace. -
Not really, SARS incident is a case for the MOH, not Mindef.Originally posted by OH-FF:The only weakness that we as Singaporeans truly have is that when there is a War Situation, nobody comes to the frontline.
I take this scenario very seriously because during the SARs incident , it is not our Medical Corps from the SAF to take the frontlines in the SARs prevention efforts. Those regulars and "Officers" Simply waited for instructions from above with no real intiative to bring themselves to the front planning tables.
Infact, it was contracted out. I participated in the Effort and was accepted employment for this contractual effort because i was Medic trained in the SAF.
I wouldnt be surprise with the jobs locally given to sub-contractors which simply dismisses its local staff because they were (too expensive) to keep, there are more non-ns foreigners getting jobs than local uneployed. I find that from now and the future of all NSF wont be bothered to turn up unless there is threat of Jailing and DB.
So in case a real war-scenario , the local NSMEN wont probably be bothered because there wont be DB or Jailing when its all over.
So we're just part of the NS- Nice Show.
As for Mindef, there is already a concrete contingency plans for all DEFCON situations, and that have been tested a number of times up to certain level but not full deployment, for eg Israeli PM visit etc.