Can anyone cmment on this.
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USE you bloody brain lar, how big is U.S.A compared to Singapore.Yet you wanna compare the salary
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Because we are not dummies and we are not naive. We are human and we are pragmatic & practical.Originally posted by SilverPal:Why must our mini-stars keep blackmailing themselves for higher pay? If they are as upright and moral as the young emperor keeps harping, maybe they should not hae stooped so low as to blackmail themselves, nor give in to their own blackmails???
Tell me which country that pays their ministers peanuts are not corrupt? You think USA not corrupt? Why are US businesses forced to contribute to political parties?
You people want good govt but you want to pay peanuts. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish man. What a couple millions to Singapore. I say they deserve every cent they get for doing such a great job. -
Originally posted by nomood:
taking snow_leopards analogy where he seems to suggest that we should peg their pay to a 'commoner's' pay (which i shall take to be the average salary in singapore) it's fair to say that might serve as an incentive to make our ministers work harder. but it still does not address the issue of singaporean's average wage. what, did you think that the money would return to us in the form of tax returns? or ERS?
nomood, you have missed the point. the essence of the discussion is leadership. leaders should put their people before themselves. before they start pampering themselves they should put themselves in the shoes of the common people and honestly ask themselves how comfortable they would be in them. so the purpose of the analogy is not as you say, to peg or to get them to work harder, but to make them realise that while they have all in the world that they want, we are still struggling. i do not expect savings from their wages to return to me but i do hope that under good leadership, our national wage council, can make lives better for us all. is that not addressing the issue of singaporean's average wage? -
not much. just a few peanuts.Originally posted by anhydrouscoppersulphate:how about durai's salary? -
I don't think I have missed the point of the discussion. Assuming that I am taking this post to be a summary of your arguments, this thread has largely been talking about nothing but what our ministers ought to do, how they ought to think about us, how we are struggling etc etc...Originally posted by snow leopard:nomood, you have missed the point. the essence of the discussion is leadership. leaders should put their people before themselves. before they start pampering themselves they should put themselves in the shoes of the common people and honestly ask themselves how comfortable they would be in them. so the purpose of the analogy is not as you say, to peg or to get them to work harder, but to make them realise that while they have all in the world that they want, we are still struggling. i do not expect savings from their wages to return to me but i do hope that under good leadership, our national wage council, can make lives better for us all. is that not addressing the issue of singaporean's average wage?
None of those things described above, and above all, paying them less does *not* equate to 'good leadership', and hence my contention that we are talking about silly periphery problems.
If we were genuinely talking about leadership, one might question if there is more to be done about the current unemployment rate? Or why is there a general lack of interest amongst them in opening Buangkok station? Or is there more that can be done to accelerate our economie's recovery? Basically issues that affects our quality of life, you get the idea, yes?
As it stands, this thread is merely b.itching about how much more they're receiving. Like I said, and I quote from my previous post:
Originally posted by nomood:my stand is simple. their pay dosen't concern me at all, or at least not in the sense of how happy it will make me. what concerns me more is that they're doing their job, and i'm still living a relatively ok/good life.
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well nomood, i still think you have.Originally posted by nomood:I don't think I have missed the point of the discussion. Assuming that I am taking this post to be a summary of your arguments, this thread has largely been talking about nothing but what our ministers ought to do, how they ought to think about us, how we are struggling etc etc...
None of those things described above, and above all, paying them less does *not* equate to 'good leadership', and hence my contention that we are talking about silly periphery problems.
If we were genuinely talking about leadership, one might question if there is more to be done about the current unemployment rate? Or why is there a general lack of interest amongst them in opening Buangkok station? Or is there more that can be done to accelerate our economie's recovery? Basically issues that affects our quality of life, you get the idea, yes?
As it stands, this thread is merely b.itching about how much more they're receiving. Like I said, and I quote from my previous post:
my stand is simple. their pay dosen't concern me at all, or at least not in the sense of how happy it will make me. what concerns me more is that they're doing their job, and i'm still living a relatively ok/good life.
the struggling that i mentioned are elaborated in your concerns about unemployment, economic revival and so on. so what is so different about the quality of life that you're so concerned with compared with my concerns about daily bread and butter? how come my concerns about daily bread and butter is silly periphery problems whereas your concerns about quality of life is "geniune" leadership?
so if there are so many problems you mentioned going around that needs "geniune" leadership, why do you still think they're doing their job? if quality of life is as yet imperfect, why do you still think you're "living a relatively good life"? -
While you are correct that we should not penny wise and pound foolish, but is there a need to pay them so much? We pay them millions mind you. Not hundred thousands.Originally posted by Salman:Because we are not dummies and we are not naive. We are human and we are pragmatic & practical.
Tell me which country that pays their ministers peanuts are not corrupt? You think USA not corrupt? Why are US businesses forced to contribute to political parties?
You people want good govt but you want to pay peanuts. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish man. What a couple millions to Singapore. I say they deserve every cent they get for doing such a great job. -
Like I said before, it is a silly periphery problem because it is not going to do anything to raise the standard of life. You don't think that arguing about how much others are being paid constitutes b.itching?Originally posted by snow leopard:well nomood, i still think you have.
the struggling that i mentioned are elaborated in your concerns about unemployment, economic revival and so on. so what is so different about the quality of life that you're so concerned with compared with my concerns about daily bread and butter? how come my concerns about daily bread and butter is silly periphery problems whereas your concerns about quality of life is "geniune" leadership?
so if there are so many problems you mentioned going around that needs "geniune" leadership, why do you still think they're doing their job? if quality of life is as yet imperfect, why do you still think you're "living a relatively good life"?
Again, I ask, what is it a solution to? Our economy? Your 'daily bread and butter'? I've already countered that it is not a discussion about leadership. Let's hear some tangible answers instead this time.
I mentioned those 3 problems as examples which one might use to question if they are truly doing their jobs. I happen to think that as it is, they are doing enough to keep me happy, seeiing that all of those 3 problems do not affect me adversely.
I live a happy life, though and like you said, it's imperfect. But it's happy, and more importantly, *good enough*, and that's all i care about.
Not their salaries. If I have time I might start wondering why Buangkok station isn't opened, or why some of my other friends are unemployed. But I'm quite happy the way things are. -
Then why stop there? Why dun we follow the encounraging trend and open the country reserves to them and tell them to take as much as they like! I'm sure with the country's reserves behind them, they would never be corrupt again.Originally posted by Salman:Because we are not dummies and we are not naive. We are human and we are pragmatic & practical.
Tell me which country that pays their ministers peanuts are not corrupt? You think USA not corrupt? Why are US businesses forced to contribute to political parties?
You people want good govt but you want to pay peanuts. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish man. What a couple millions to Singapore. I say they deserve every cent they get for doing such a great job.
Another forumer in this thread mentioned about comparing with finland, hong kong, etc... Maybe we should look at those countries to see if it might work for us rather than constantly increasing their pay irregardless?
When times are good, our ministars get a pay rise for good leedership. When times are bad, our leedership gets pay rise to incentivise them to hlp the country. Doesn't that teach them that, no matter how much or little effort they put in, they will still get a pay rise?
What is their motivation to work hard? Morals? Love of country?
Money is not everything. -
Then why stop there? Why dun we follow the encounraging trend and open the country reserves to them and tell them to take as much as they like! I'm sure with the country's reserves behind them, they would never be corrupt again.
Who suggested that in the first place?
Do you have any evidence of what you say? You better be careful of what you say boy.
Hongkong and finland corruption free? As competent as our govt? No thanks. HK is in a mess and finland depends on nokia for 1/3 of its GDP.
Another forumer in this thread mentioned about comparing with finland, hong kong, etc... Maybe we should look at those countries to see if it might work for us rather than constantly increasing their pay irregardless?
These are not good models at all.
They took pay cuts sir, not bonuses.
When times are good, our ministars get a pay rise for good leedership. When times are bad, our leedership gets pay rise to incentivise them to hlp the country. Doesn't that teach them that, no matter how much or little effort they put in, they will still get a pay rise?
They are motivated just like mortals like you. To serve and to live a good life for their family.
What is their motivation to work hard? Morals? Love of country?
Money is not everything.
I just don't understand why you are so jealous of capable people who work hard and make more money than you.
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Originally posted by nomood:
Like I said before, it is a silly periphery problem because it is not going to do anything to raise the standard of life. You don't think that arguing about how much others are being paid constitutes b.itching?
I disagwee, when a person in power is more concerned about his own well being than the well being of his subjects, he wouldn't go the extra mile to raise the standard of living for his subjects would he? Conversely if his heart is with the people, he would make sure the people are well fed and lead comfortable lives before he thinks about rewarding himself. this is not some tom or harry we're "b.itching" about. these are people in public office. public office calls for public scrutiny. cost of government is a burden borne by us. since it's public funds we're talking about, we don't even have a right to discuss about it?
Again, I ask, what is it a solution to? Our economy? Your 'daily bread and butter'?
shouldn't this question be posed to the million dollar man?
I've already countered that it is not a discussion about leadership.
did you? don't think so. it's still about leadership i say
Let's hear some tangible answers instead this time.
my sentiments to you as well
I mentioned those 3 problems as examples which one might use to question if they are truly doing their jobs. I happen to think that as it is, they are doing enough to keep me happy, seeiing that all of those 3 problems do not affect me adversely.
in other words the 3 problems don't concern you "adversely" and so is enough to keep you happy. this sounds to me like some wildebeest in the African savanna who really doesn't care if the guy next to him is killed by lions ... as long as it is not him.
I live a happy life, though and like you said, it's imperfect. But it's happy, and more importantly, *good enough*, and that's all i care about. Not their salaries. If I have time I might start wondering why Buangkok station isn't opened, or why some of my other friends are unemployed. But I'm quite happy the way things are.
there are things you're unhappy about, there are things you don't care about. similarly there are things i'm unhappy about and there are things i dun necessarily care as much. your things and my things differ doesn't mean your concerns are right and my concerns are wrong. -
Originally posted by Salman:
You better be careful of what you say boy.
that's not very polite is that?
Hongkong and finland corruption free? As competent as our govt? No thanks. HK is in a mess and finland depends on nokia for 1/3 of its GDP.
These are not good models at all.
if you check up worldwide corruption indexes, many Nordic countries rank higher than us. Hong Kong's only slightly lower than us. HK's in a mess? their per capita GDP's comparable to ours, if not better. finland has nokia and that's a shame? how i wish creative is as successful ... -
Finland may be less corrupt, but they depend on Nokia for 1/3 of GDP. Its a deadly formula. No good.
Hong Kong is dirty and cramped and polluted. Houses are chicken coops. Quality of life sucks. The govt didn't do a good job. -
Have u considered thier space constraint as HK is a mountainious area. Now HK is spending lots of money to establish recalimed land at Lan Tau island.Originally posted by Salman:Finland may be less corrupt, but they depend on Nokia for 1/3 of GDP. Its a deadly formula. No good.
Hong Kong is dirty and cramped and polluted. Houses are chicken coops. Quality of life sucks. The govt didn't do a good job.
Come in terms of white horses...thier white horse is 40% more than our local ones...
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I think its all a matter of management. Moutains can be dug and used to reclaim land. The mountans of HK are not very tall anyway.
Note that the taxes are low in HK. A major revenue of HK govt comes from land sales. They own all the land and release them a little bit at a time to Li Kashing to maintain land price. -
Are you suggesting an inverse relationship btw concern for people & the amount of pay? That a minister should accept a lower salary to prove his sincerity to the masses??Originally posted by snow leopard:Originally posted by nomood:
Like I said before, it is a silly periphery problem because it is not going to do anything to raise the standard of life. You don't think that arguing about how much others are being paid constitutes b.itching?
I disagwee, when a person in power is more concerned about his own well being than the well being of his subjects, he wouldn't go the extra mile to raise the standard of living for his subjects would he? Conversely if his heart is with the people, he would make sure the people are well fed and lead comfortable lives before he thinks about rewarding himself. this is not some tom or harry we're "b.itching" about. these are people in public office. public office calls for public scrutiny. cost of government is a burden borne by us. since it's public funds we're talking about, we don't even have a right to discuss about it?
I'd honestly be concerned if they did a suddent arm reversal and lowered their salaries. Coz' then I know we have a bunch of wayangs in power. If there's anything worse then a million dollar minister, it's a 1 dollar minister corrupting 2 million dollars.
You're quite right about the cost of government being a burden to us, since it's public funds. And yes, sure we can discuss about it. But one must question why we discuss something, and to what purpose it serves? I'm suggesting that if it's pointless it's no better then b.itching.
btw, b.itching is a god given right. I don't see it as anything negative. What do you think sgforums is about....?? heh
Hmm, are you referring to anyone in particular? Who's the million dollar man in question?
Again, I ask, what is it a solution to? Our economy? Your 'daily bread and butter'?
shouldn't this question be posed to the million dollar man?
Anyway, I digress. Since we're discussing the cost of government, simply put, Lowering their salary is the solution to...? -
the mountains in HK are rocky mountains. even digging a tunnel is a lot more difficult and costly than ordinary. they just have to make do with whatever flat land available, mostly in the new territory.Originally posted by Salman:I think its all a matter of management. Moutains can be dug and used to reclaim land. The mountans of HK are not very tall anyway.
Note that the taxes are low in HK. A major revenue of HK govt comes from land sales. They own all the land and release them a little bit at a time to Li Kashing to maintain land price.
the brits ruled and sucked HK for the last 150 yrs. HK prospered over the last 50 yrs becaue that is the only place chinese from mainland china could run away from communism.
were there any management by the british colonial master? if there were, the airport, where planes fly in day in day out over housing areas, looking into kitchens and bedrooms, could have been moved out of kai tat long time ago.
HK is not a country so the comparison is not appropriate. China wants HK to be an example of one country two system for taiwan and the world to see, so HK is not fighting alone. Beijing opened mouth only, fresh water supplies come from guangdong, Hk can have free exchange of rmb, chinese tourists can come to HK without restrictions. HK don have to spend money on armed forces, china wont attack it, america wont attack it, there is no neighbouring nations to even argue with, I think even the terrorists hve no interest in it. -
Originally posted by Salman:
Finland may be less corrupt, but they depend on Nokia for 1/3 of GDP. Its a deadly formula. No good.
when we were so heavily dependent on the electronics sector and it nose dived did the people in charge get sacked? even before our supposed third or fourth pillar like biomedicals have spread their wings we are already congratulating ourselves and giving ourselves a pat on the back by saying we've got a better formula?
diversification is only one aspect of the economy. of greater importance is innovation and the harnessing innovation to create competitive advantage. nokia has done just that for finland by creating one of the greatest businesses in the world? you call that a lousy formula?
it's not as if nokia is a fly by night manufacturing plant ready to pull out to move on to China and leave the rest of us begging for more investors. nokia is finland's and whatever creation and value that comes with it accrues to nokia. where do u think the lion's share of the value chain lies in? manufacturing? you look at our supposed third wing, the biomedicals. they're all basically factories brainlessly churning out products everyday. there is no reason why the factories won't pack their bags and leave like their electronic predecessors have. what happens then? another round of re-training for all singaporeans? how often can one retrain in a lifetime? how painful is it? do the policy makers care? they won't be going thru the shit of retaining so why should they care? so is our formula really that good? this is especially poignant considering finland's population is no different from ours.
Hong Kong is dirty and cramped and polluted. Houses are chicken coops. Quality of life sucks. The govt didn't do a good job.
so our houses are like palaces? while i don't deny that our country is squeaky clean, which is something i truly appreciate, i find it hard to believe that quality of life in the jewel of the east can be any far worse. if anything goes, standard of living should be more similar than not. -
Originally posted by nomood:
[Are you suggesting an inverse relationship btw concern for people & the amount of pay? That a minister should accept a lower salary to prove his sincerity to the masses??]
nope, those are your words not mine. i said before in this thread, poverty leads to corruption doesn't sanctify astronomical high pays. if concern is related to pay, then what you're really concerned with is money isn't it? when concern is there with or without money, then concern is real. i'm not saying leaders should be poor to prove their sincerity. but when the income gap is so great and the burden of economic downturns fall squarely on the people while leaders' pay (adjusted or otherwise) are still so unfathomably high, you can't help but wonder whether we're in this together or are we simply being exploited?
[I'd honestly be concerned if they did a suddent arm reversal and lowered their salaries. Coz' then I know we have a bunch of wayangs in power.]
why should they reverse? they're in power! seems to me you can't tell wayang from sayang ...
[If there's anything worse then a million dollar minister, it's a 1 dollar minister corrupting 2 million dollars.]
if a person is incorruptible, he doesn't need a million dollars, let alone $2 million
[You're quite right about the cost of government being a burden to us, since it's public funds. And yes, sure we can discuss about it. But one must question why we discuss something, and to what purpose it serves? I'm suggesting that if it's pointless it's no better then b.itching.]
what purpose it serves? we dicussed about the casino, what purpose did it serve? so if we can't have our say we might as well don't discuss? then why did you bother to bring up the buang kok mrt case?
[btw, b.itching is a god given right. I don't see it as anything negative. What do you think sgforums is about....?? heh]
"b.itching" is a term u coined, not the way i see it.
[Hmm, are you referring to anyone in particular? Who's the million dollar man in question?]
focus here is on income disparity, fairness, leadership ... other matters? no mood to talk here ...
[Anyway, I digress. Since we're discussing the cost of government, simply put, Lowering their salary is the solution to...?]
lower their salaries? u must be kidding, they'll skin u alive first. high salaries is just a symptom. adjusting salaries is merely treating the symptoms but not curing the disease. so what is the disease? how did the high salaries come about?
absolute power corrupts absolutely ... -
Finally.Originally posted by snow leopard:high salaries is just a symptom. adjusting salaries is merely treating the symptoms but not curing the disease.
After all that, you finally get it.
*celebrations*
Edit: I was going to go into another long hoo ha until I saw your last sentence. As long as you understand that it is nothing but a 'symptom', we can talk until the cows come home and still have achieved nothing. -
Yes, Singapore has one of the highest ministerial salaries in the world, I hear.
If not, we would have corruption.
High salaries and severe penalties are the only ways to deal with corruption. -
yea.. cant compare with U.S
we are Singapore the best! -
Singapore's corruption level is one of the lowest in the world?
Cos of high salaries and severe penalties.
Or else we would be like Phillippines of Indonesia, where the politicians are famous for being corrupt. -
I can only agree with high income n salary..lower chances or corruption. Its a known fact ah ya...
But at the expense of the peoples also ah.. -
Originally posted by nomood:
Finally.
After all that, you finally get it.
you must be joking ... seems to me it is you who has finally gotten around to what i've been saying.
Edit: I was going to go into another long hoo ha until I saw your last sentence. As long as you understand that it is nothing but a 'symptom', we can talk until the cows come home and still have achieved nothing.
you're most welcome to try but please dun make this symptom thing sound like some big revelation, it's no big deal really.
ordinary citizens like us can't move or shape things in a big way but the least we could do is to make a stand. if we were to all adopt a wildebeest attitude of letting things be, we will forever be taken for granted. if we won't lend our voices to good, simple, truths, the least we could do is not impede others from doing so.